Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

b-hebrew - [b-hebrew] b-hebrew] Hebrew pronunciation before the Masoretes

b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Biblical Hebrew Forum

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: David P Donnelly <davedonnelly1 AT juno.com>
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: [b-hebrew] b-hebrew] Hebrew pronunciation before the Masoretes
  • Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 09:23:10 -0500

On
Wed Jan 19 04:21:51 EST 2011
Sesamo m. sesamox at hotmail.com wrote:

I've got a question about the pronunciation of YHWH. I know there is a
lot of controversy and I don't want to
add to it; I know there are no certainties here, and I just like to
explore the possibilities. In my first post I
mentioned the possibility that first vowels tended to weaken. William
Parsons points to the possibility that
those vowels were like that all the time. Now I wonder, in the
hypothetical case that my suggestion were true,
could it be possible that the theophoric prefix "Yeho-" were originally
"Yaho-" (so the name was "Yahowi",
Yahowa" or whatever) and that the form "Yah" were just an apocope?

>>>
Parsons wrote that the LXX rendering "Io-" seem to favour "Yeho-" rather
than "Yaho-",
but could it be that the hypothetical weakening occurred before?
>>>

Dave writes:
If I am not mistaken there are at least 15 occurrences of theophoric
names in Hebrew manuscripts
that have both Yeho prefixes and Yo prefixes.

YEHOachaz---------YOachaz
YEHOnathan--------YOnathan
etc etc

Just in passing, the well known Hebrew Scholar Gesenius,
who has provided us with the proposed Hebrew punctuation Y-a-h-w-e-h,
and a-p-p-a-r-e-n-t-l-y DOES NOT believe that YEHOwah is the actual name
of God,
has written.

>>>
Also those who consider that Yehowah was the actual pronunciation
are not without ground on which to defend their opinion;
in this way can the abbreviated syllables Yeh and Yo,
with which many proper names begin,
be more satisfactorily explained.
>>>

FWIW
Dave Donnelly

P.S. I am not aware of any Hebrew scholar who posts on b-hebrew who can
derive a "Yeho" prefix from
Y-a-h-w-e-h.
Can any Hebrew scholar who posts on b-hebrew derive a "Yeho" prefix from
YEHOwah?
____________________________________________________________
Obama Urges Homeowners to Refinance
If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Obama's Refi Program
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4d36f3fec760bbef0d4st06duc
>From chavoux AT gmail.com Wed Jan 19 15:24:55 2011
Return-Path: <chavoux AT gmail.com>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
id 08A7D4C022; Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:24:54 -0500 (EST)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on malecky
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,
DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,T_TO_NO_BRKTS_FREEMAIL
autolearn=disabled version=3.3.1
Received: from mail-iy0-f177.google.com (mail-iy0-f177.google.com
[209.85.210.177])
by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41FB04C01E
for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:24:54 -0500
(EST)
Received: by iyj21 with SMTP id 21so1171007iyj.36
for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Wed, 19 Jan 2011 12:24:54 -0800
(PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to
:content-type; bh=yAP6aVDM7OoUMqMUVRL5he+ufgOS4pRaEd+0K2YXbDw=;
b=EWJg0ei6q6Ymsg7uIFt0BWhG0/lL5txZScOV4k4A2balNsPEuA+4g29CZl+zJh1VJQ
jEP457dWidIFdxwkq1FmNGopqgB1+VcRkpx0U4R0Q5qlOj4SEt1ivMXRm/zUkvGHlT/S
9PvoUr9XIBylJz9jtfjE2xwkByEQOVNL/BELs=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type;
b=T5/IlJfvBtcUfHn1PjNPJdayLBxBvprjeSo9TDlH5aJzDYD39OUAu5HX66NauRRkgX
vcYpFufMIiZqKrFHEJeJqxaW23KJ0z4b2YRNJ4ed3/YPXVsF3DmGeEku1Djn9M3M3LM8
TlCsSchJ9+5d5oP0tQb/ztoTMApnx5M9UtBEw=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.42.240.132 with SMTP id la4mr1428545icb.415.1295468693941;
Wed, 19 Jan 2011 12:24:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.42.155.66 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Jan 2011 12:24:53 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 22:24:53 +0200
Message-ID: <AANLkTikG1XcMeCyQCfvx7EuHVk+aAW3kk11tFvj81Whc AT mail.gmail.com>
From: Chavoux Luyt <chavoux AT gmail.com>
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Hebrew pronunciation before the Masoretes
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13
Precedence: list
List-Id: Biblical Hebrew Forum <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/b-hebrew>,
<mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
<mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 20:24:55 -0000

Shalom the list!

Thanks for all the answers on my question about the possible
pronunciation of YHWH. Seeing that it came up again, I have some more
questions.

<snip>
>
> I've got a question about the pronunciation of YHWH. I know there is a
> lot of controversy and I don't want to
> add to it; I know there are no certainties here, and I just like to
> explore the possibilities. In my first post I
> mentioned the possibility that first vowels tended to weaken. William
> Parsons points to the possibility that
> those vowels were like that all the time. Now I wonder, in the
> hypothetical case that my suggestion were true,
> could it be possible that the theophoric prefix "Yeho-" were originally
> "Yaho-" (so the name was "Yahowi",
> Yahowa" or whatever) and that the form "Yah" were just an apocope?
>
>>>>
> Parsons wrote that the LXX rendering "Io-" seem to favour "Yeho-" rather
> than "Yaho-",
> but could it be that the hypothetical weakening occurred before?
>>>>
>
> Dave writes:
> If I am not mistaken there are at least 15 occurrences of theophoric
> names in Hebrew manuscripts
> that have both Yeho prefixes and Yo prefixes.
>
> YEHOachaz---------YOachaz
> YEHOnathan--------YOnathan
> etc etc
>
> Just in passing, the well known Hebrew Scholar Gesenius,
> who has provided us with the proposed Hebrew punctuation Y-a-h-w-e-h,
> and a-p-p-a-r-e-n-t-l-y DOES NOT believe that YEHOwah is the actual name
> of God,
> has written.
>
>>>>
> Also those who consider that Yehowah was the actual pronunciation
> are not without ground on which to defend their opinion;
> in this way can the abbreviated syllables Yeh and Yo,
> with which many proper names begin,
> be more satisfactorily explained.
>>>>
>
<snip>
> P.S. I am not aware of any Hebrew scholar who posts on b-hebrew who can
> derive a "Yeho" prefix from
> Y-a-h-w-e-h.
> Can any Hebrew scholar who posts on b-hebrew derive a "Yeho" prefix from
> YEHOwah?
Can I come back to my proposition of the pi'el 3rd person imperfectum
(Y'HaWeH - Yod-shewa-He-patach-Waw-Tsere-He)?
1. Can a "Yeho" prefix come from "Yeha"?
2. Can "Yeha" sound like "Yah" when said rapidly?
3. Can it account for the different transcriptions into Greek of the
Name (Some trying to copy the Hebrew pronunciation and some just
trying to repesent the Hebrew consonants)?
4. Does it actually make grammatical sense? (What would be the meaning
of the Yahweh vocalization proposed by Gesenius?).
5. How far back does the differences in the Azkenazi and Sephardic
pronunciation of hebrew go? Is it possible that different dialectal
pronunciations were the reason for the variety of Greek transcriptions
of YHWH? E.g. the Ephraim tribe already had a non-standard
pronunciation of "shibolet" in the time of the Judges.

Regards
Chavoux




Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page