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Subject: Biblical Hebrew Forum
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- From: "Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud AT wanadoo.fr>
- To: "Will Parsons" <wbparsons AT alum.mit.edu>
- Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org, randallbuth AT gmail.com
- Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod
- Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 08:50:18 +0100
From: "Will Parsons" <wbparsons AT alum.mit.edu>:
Arnaud, comments on some points...
On Mon, 1 Nov 2010 21:27:19 +0100, "Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud AT wanadoo.fr> wrote:
***Prosody is always a problem when divergent.
In addition there is no reason to think Ancient Hebrew had so many "dialects".
That language was not sprawling over a whole continent, as far as I know.
A.
***
That wouldn't prevent it from having a lot of dialectual variation. Consider
the case of Greek in ancient times.
Yes, but Greek was indeed spoken over a very large area, and it had replaced quite a lot of substratic languages.
As I see it, Ancient Hebrew was not spoken on an area much, much bigger than Crete *alone*
and I've not heard that Mycenian Greek had dialects.
In addition there is little reason to think that Hebrew spread over substrates.
In other words I tend to think that Ancient Hebrew was spoken over a rather compact area with little inferences.
I let you disprove this point of view.
A.
***
***
Hebrew itself very clearly indicates that emphatics must have been
glottalized in Ancient Hebrew, as vowels are not at all colored in any way
by emphatics.
Conclusive.
A.
***
It happens that I agree with you here - the lack of vowel colourization
is strong evidence of emphatics that were realized as glottalized. But still,
is this conclusive? I would say not. I would like to know (from someone
familiar with Yemeni Hebrew pronunciation) if in the Yemenite tradition
(where I believe, emphatics are pronounced as the corresponding sounds in
Arabic) there may in fact be an influence of emphatic consonants on the
adjacent vowels.
In all cases, this situation is a very strong argument to think that glottalized is the original feature.
A.
***
***
>>8. Affricates: lost (except Tsade)
>
> Tsade emically preserves what may have been a pharyngealized sibilant.
***
It represents the fusion of a glottalized affricate and a glottalized
lateral stop.
A.
***
Too dogmatic by far! What evidence is there that sadhe *was* an affricate
in ancient times? (And no, I don't consider the Codex Vaticanus "evidence"
discussed in a previous thread to be valid.)
Akkadian tsade and tsade cuneiform signs are doubtless an affricate as it is rendered as affricates in other languages, which have the distinction affricate / non affricate.
Cuneiform S was probably just s
Cuneiform s, z and s. are affricates.
So I suppose it must have been an affricate in the original proto-Semitic (and before).
A.
***
Or a glottalized lateral stop?***
(Actually, I'm not even sure of what a "lateral stop" would be.)
Maybe you would prefer lateralized stop: a combination of T plus a lateralized fricative L (plus voice or other features).
A.
***
***
Do you know that story from Chaucer himself that he said eggs or eyes to a
southern English lady, and she did not understand him, because her plural
was eyen. Sometimes it does not take much to block communication.
Arnaud Fournet
***
Sometimes, but this is the exception. I don't know this story, but since
Chaucer himself was Southern English, I doubt that he found the ambiguity
a serious difficulty.
Will Parsons
The lady did...
She was probably less familiar than Chaucer with the dialectal variability of Middle English.
Arnaud Fournet
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod
, (continued)
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod,
ISAAC FRIED, 11/01/2010
- Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod, Arnaud Fournet, 11/01/2010
-
[b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod,
Uri Hurwitz, 11/01/2010
- Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod, Isaac Fried, 11/01/2010
-
[b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod,
Randall Buth, 11/01/2010
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod,
Arnaud Fournet, 11/01/2010
- Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod, George Athas, 11/01/2010
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod,
Randall Buth, 11/01/2010
- Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod, Arnaud Fournet, 11/02/2010
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod,
Will Parsons, 11/01/2010
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod,
Arnaud Fournet, 11/02/2010
- Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod, Kevin Riley, 11/02/2010
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod,
Will Parsons, 11/02/2010
- Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod, Isaac Fried, 11/02/2010
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod,
Arnaud Fournet, 11/03/2010
- Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod, Will Parsons, 11/03/2010
- [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod - END OF THREAD, George Athas, 11/03/2010
- Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod, Arnaud Fournet, 11/04/2010
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod,
Arnaud Fournet, 11/02/2010
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod,
Arnaud Fournet, 11/01/2010
- Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod, Isaac Fried, 11/01/2010
- Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod, Randall Buth, 11/01/2010
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Piel Participles of ayin-waw-yod,
ISAAC FRIED, 11/01/2010
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