Biblical Hebrew Forum

[davedonnelly1 AT juno.com]

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: James Christian <jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com>
To: davedonnelly1 AT juno.com
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 15:11:44 +0300
Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [b-hebrew] Reading Jehovah in Psalm 16:2 and in
Psalm 110:1 ]
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<AANLkTikP0RanQGHOpLn3ofFhZY3Y8cqYQhlNSDldT58u AT mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100625.155916.7387.90925 AT mailpop09.dca.untd.com>

Hi Dave,


Jehovah as a translation of Yhwh is about as acceptable a translation as
Jesus is of Yeshua. That is to say if you are prepared to accept the one
I see no reason why you should not accept the other. 


Now if you are asking me if Jehovah is an accurate representation of the
original pronunciation of Yhwh then the answer is clearly No! J may be
pronounced as Y in some languages but it certainly isn't in English. 


Now if you are asking me how many syllables did Yhwh have then I lean
towards 3 rather than 2. The Yeho's and Yahu's certainly seem to support
a second syllable vowel with o/u quality. I know Garth's reply to this. I
don't see it as valid.


There also seems to be some Greek transliteration evidence of a 3
syllable name and supporters of Yahweh tend to lean on the
transliteration of the Samaritan pronunciation of Iave.


In conclusion Dave, I reassert the position I made clear to you from the
very beginning. I see the best translation as Yhwh. This is exactly what
we have in the manuscripts. Nothing more and nothing less. A reader
reading Yhwh is free to supply the pronunciation they feel most
comfortable with.


James Christian

Hi James,

Do you believe that "Yehowah" can be considered an accurate pronunciation
of [Yod-shewa-he-defective holem-waw-qamets-he] 

In this particular Hebrew Spelling that I wrote, wouldn't "Yehowah" be an
example of pronouncing  [Yod-shewa-he-defective holem-waw-qamets-he] ["AS
IT WAS WRITTEN"]

James,
Are you ready to determine if you can derive Yeho prefixes from "Yehowah"
?

If you can, you might not only demonstrate that God's name might be
Yehowah,
You might also demonstrate that God's name might be "Yahweh" [I think]

Give it a try.

Dave Donnelly





On 26 June 2010 01:58, <davedonnelly1 AT juno.com> wrote:


----- Forwarded Message -----
From: <davedonnelly1 AT juno.com>
To: jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 18:04:50 -0400
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Reading Jehovah in Psalm 16:2 and in Psalm 110:1
]

Hi James,

You asked me: Are you for or against translating as Jehovah?  

James; If Jehovah is a legitimate name for God, of course I want to use
that name.

James; If Jehovah is not a legitimate name for God, of course I do not
want to use that name.

I do not know what is true about the name Jehovah.


JUST IN PASSING, JAMES,  CAN YOU PREFIX NATHAN WITH JEHOVAH AND PRODUCE
THE THEOPHORIC NAME "YEHONATHAN".

I sort of think that I can, but I never asked Garth to verify if he
thought that my method was legitimate..

Gesenius has said: 
"Also those who consider that Yehowah was the actual pronunciation
are not without ground on which to defend their opinion;
in this way can the abbreviated syllables Yeh and Yo, 
with which many proper names begin, 
be more satisfactorily explained."

Of course as far as I know Gesenius did not believe that the vowels in
the underlying Hebrew of Jehovah were the actual vowels of God's name,
althought he was very up front about saying that the vowels in the
underlying Hebrew of Jehovah were not the same as those vowels found in
"Adonai"

_________________________________________________________________________
___

James, I am very sceptic al about some of the evidence that has been
presented to defend various Hebrew teachings that Jehovah was not meant
to be pronounced "AS IT WAS WRITTEN".

I recognize that, in my particular situation [with my limited
understanding of Hebrew]  some of the evidence that I have heard is far
beyond my ability to understand!!!  

However, the evidence that I have heard, that is far beyond my
understanding, does not seem to deal with the situation as it exists in
the Leningrad Codex and in the Ben Chayyim Hebrew Text of 1525 A.D.

James:  Could you write something in your own words, to explain what the
Jewish reader sees in the Hebrew word [Yod-shewa-He-defective
holem-waw-qamets-he] that indicates to him or her that the Masoretes did
not want that Hebrew word to be pronounced "as it was written". 

Dave Donnelly

P.S.

Have you read Gesenius's page long article on this issue, of the name
"Jehovah"?

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 00:00:17 +0300 James Christian
<jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com> writes:
Hi Dave,


I believe I speak for just about everyone when I say we are already
familiar with this criticism. But I have to be honest and open with you
and observe that I don't quite see what your point is or why you made
this quotation to us. Are you for or against translating as Jehovah? 


James Christian


On 25 June 2010 01:43, <davedonnelly1 AT juno.com> wrote:

On Thu Jun 24 13:44:34 EDT 2010 , Yigal Levin leviny1 at mail.biu.ac.il
wrote:

>>>
Dave,

B-Hebrew does not espouse a particular dogma about the vocalization of
theTetragrammaton,
nor does ii even enforce a particular scheme of transliteration.

If anyone wishes to use "Jehovah" they are free to do so,  just as others
may use Yahweh, Yhwh, Yehovah, Lord, Kurios, Baal or even Bruce Almighty.


I answered your original question by saying that I assumed that whoever
used "Jehovah" simply didn't bother to change whatever source they had
copied from, and that the reason that no-one protested was that the
subject had already been discussed to death.

You've now made your point. If you want to know why someone else used one
form or another,
ask them directly.
If they feel like answering, they will.
If they don't feel like discussing the issue, please respect that.

Yigal Levin
>>>

Yigal,

Thank you very much for your response.

Just in passing, the editors of the Article JEHOVAH (YAHWEH) in the
Encyclopedia Britannica of 1911 have been one of the harshest critics of
those persons who first translated the Hebrew text into English. [or
German in the case of Martin Luther.]

After making known their belief that "Jehovah" is a mispronunciation of
the Hebrew name, resulting from combining the consonants of the name,
Jhvh, with the vowels of the word Adonay, "Lord", which the Jews
substituted for the proper name in reading the scriptures . They
continued and wrote: "In such cases of substitution the vowels of the
word which is to be read are written in the Hebrew text with the
consonants of the word which is not to be read. The consonants of the
word to be substituted are ordinarily written in the margins; but
inasmuch  as Adonay was regularly read instead of the ineffable name
Jhvh, it was deemed unnecessary to note the fact at every occurrence.
When Christian scholars began to study the Old Testament in Hebrew, if
they were ignorant of this general rule or regarded the substitution as a
piece of Jewish superstition, reading what actually stood in the text ,
they would inevitably pronounce the name Jehovah. It is an unprofitable
inquiry who first made the blunder,  probably many fell into it
independently........

I am adding a link to an image taken from the Encyclopedia Britannica of
1911.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/264290/BritannicaJehovah600.JPG

Dave Donnelly
____________________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Fw: Re: Reading Jehovah in Psalm 16:2 and in Psalm
        110:1 ]
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On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 3:11 PM, James Christian wrote:
> Hi Dave,

[..]
> Now if you are asking me how many syllables did Yhwh have then I lean
> towards 3 rather than 2. The Yeho's and Yahu's certainly seem to support a
> second syllable vowel with o/u quality. I know Garth's reply to this. I
> don't see it as valid.

Hello James,

First, it should be [yoho] not [yeho] (see discussions with Dave the last
few days).

Second, granted that yoho- and -yahu support a second syllable with
o/u quality, what is the evidence that they support a third syllable?

Yitzhak Sapir