Biblical Hebrew Forum

[davedonnelly1 AT juno.com]

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: <davedonnelly1 AT juno.com>
To: jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 18:04:50 -0400
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Reading Jehovah in Psalm 16:2 and in Psalm 110:1
]

Hi James,

You asked me: Are you for or against translating as Jehovah?  

James; If Jehovah is a legitimate name for God, of course I want to use
that name.

James; If Jehovah is not a legitimate name for God, of course I do not
want to use that name.

I do not know what is true about the name Jehovah.


JUST IN PASSING, JAMES,  CAN YOU PREFIX NATHAN WITH JEHOVAH AND PRODUCE
THE THEOPHORIC NAME "YEHONATHAN".

I sort of think that I can, but I never asked Garth to verify if he
thought that my method was legitimate..

Gesenius has said: 
"Also those who consider that Yehowah was the actual pronunciation
are not without ground on which to defend their opinion;
in this way can the abbreviated syllables Yeh and Yo, 
with which many proper names begin, 
be more satisfactorily explained."

Of course as far as I know Gesenius did not believe that the vowels in
the underlying Hebrew of Jehovah were the actual vowels of God's name,
althought he was very up front about saying that the vowels in the
underlying Hebrew of Jehovah were not the same as those vowels found in
"Adonai"

_________________________________________________________________________
___

James, I am very sceptic al about some of the evidence that has been
presented to defend various Hebrew teachings that Jehovah was not meant
to be pronounced "AS IT WAS WRITTEN".

I recognize that, in my particular situation [with my limited
understanding of Hebrew]  some of the evidence that I have heard is far
beyond my ability to understand!!!  

However, the evidence that I have heard, that is far beyond my
understanding, does not seem to deal with the situation as it exists in
the Leningrad Codex and in the Ben Chayyim Hebrew Text of 1525 A.D.

James:  Could you write something in your own words, to explain what the
Jewish reader sees in the Hebrew word [Yod-shewa-He-defective
holem-waw-qamets-he] that indicates to him or her that the Masoretes did
not want that Hebrew word to be pronounced "as it was written". 

Dave Donnelly

P.S.

Have you read Gesenius's page long article on this issue, of the name
"Jehovah"?

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 00:00:17 +0300 James Christian
<jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com> writes:
Hi Dave,


I believe I speak for just about everyone when I say we are already
familiar with this criticism. But I have to be honest and open with you
and observe that I don't quite see what your point is or why you made
this quotation to us. Are you for or against translating as Jehovah? 


James Christian


On 25 June 2010 01:43, <davedonnelly1 AT juno.com> wrote:

On Thu Jun 24 13:44:34 EDT 2010 , Yigal Levin leviny1 at mail.biu.ac.il
wrote:

>>>
Dave,

B-Hebrew does not espouse a particular dogma about the vocalization of
theTetragrammaton,
nor does ii even enforce a particular scheme of transliteration.

If anyone wishes to use "Jehovah" they are free to do so,  just as others
may use Yahweh, Yhwh, Yehovah, Lord, Kurios, Baal or even Bruce Almighty.


I answered your original question by saying that I assumed that whoever
used "Jehovah" simply didn't bother to change whatever source they had
copied from, and that the reason that no-one protested was that the
subject had already been discussed to death.

You've now made your point. If you want to know why someone else used one
form or another,
ask them directly.
If they feel like answering, they will.
If they don't feel like discussing the issue, please respect that.

Yigal Levin
>>>

Yigal,

Thank you very much for your response.

Just in passing, the editors of the Article JEHOVAH (YAHWEH) in the
Encyclopedia Britannica of 1911 have been one of the harshest critics of
those persons who first translated the Hebrew text into English. [or
German in the case of Martin Luther.]

After making known their belief that "Jehovah" is a mispronunciation of
the Hebrew name, resulting from combining the consonants of the name,
Jhvh, with the vowels of the word Adonay, "Lord", which the Jews
substituted for the proper name in reading the scriptures . They
continued and wrote: "In such cases of substitution the vowels of the
word which is to be read are written in the Hebrew text with the
consonants of the word which is not to be read. The consonants of the
word to be substituted are ordinarily written in the margins; but
inasmuch  as Adonay was regularly read instead of the ineffable name
Jhvh, it was deemed unnecessary to note the fact at every occurrence.
When Christian scholars began to study the Old Testament in Hebrew, if
they were ignorant of this general rule or regarded the substitution as a
piece of Jewish superstition, reading what actually stood in the text ,
they would inevitably pronounce the name Jehovah. It is an unprofitable
inquiry who first made the blunder,  probably many fell into it
independently........

I am adding a link to an image taken from the Encyclopedia Britannica of
1911.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/264290/BritannicaJehovah600.JPG

Dave Donnelly
____________________________________________________________
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Subject: [b-hebrew] Can YHWH at Genesis 3:14 be "correctly" read as
        "Jehovah"?
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My question is: Can the Tetragrammaton at Genesis 3:14 in the Westminster
Leningrad Codex be correctly read as "Jehovah"?

http://www.tanach.us/Tanach.xml#Gen3:14-3:14

At Genesis 3:14 , in the  Westminster Leningrad Codex , the only
occurrence of the Tetragrammaton is spelled [Yod-shewa-heh-defective
holem-waw-qamets-heh].

Is it correct to read this particular Hebrew Spelling as "Jehovah"?

IF THE CORRECT ANSWER IS "NO",
Did the Masoretes ever write that [Yod-shewa-heh-defective
holem-waw-qamets-heh] should not be read as "Jehovah"?
   
The Hebrew word that immediately follows [Yod-shewa-heh-defective
holem-waw-qamets-he] appears to be Elohim [a.k.a. Elohiym].

Dave Donnelly
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Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 17:32:59 +0300
From: Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Can YHWH at Genesis 3:14 be "correctly" read
        as"Jehovah"?
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Dave,

First of all, the word that follows the Tetragrammaton in Gen. 3:14 is
Aleph-Lamed-He-Yod-Mem "Elohim", at least in BHS. 

Second, your insisting on the spelling "Jehovah" is confusing the issue. How
do you pronounce the J in this word? As English J or as Y. If as J, what's
your evidence that Hebrew ever had that sound? If as Y, then let's make
things simpler and use "Yehovah". The same with the V. Do you actually mean
W? Is your whole issue here between "Yahweh" and "Yehowah"? Are you only
debating Gesenius' vowels? 

And in any case, what does it really matter? Long-standing tradition has it
that the actual vocalization of the Tetragrammaton was lost. The Mesoretes
used different vowels when intending the readers to read different
substitution-names, each of which has a different meaning, a different
aspect of the divine. You can argue with the Mesoretes, but please make the
issue clear.


Yigal Levin

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
davedonnelly1 AT juno.com
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 4:54 PM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [b-hebrew] Can YHWH at Genesis 3:14 be "correctly" read
as"Jehovah"?

My question is: Can the Tetragrammaton at Genesis 3:14 in the Westminster
Leningrad Codex be correctly read as "Jehovah"?

http://www.tanach.us/Tanach.xml#Gen3:14-3:14

At Genesis 3:14 , in the  Westminster Leningrad Codex , the only
occurrence of the Tetragrammaton is spelled [Yod-shewa-heh-defective
holem-waw-qamets-heh].

Is it correct to read this particular Hebrew Spelling as "Jehovah"?

IF THE CORRECT ANSWER IS "NO",
Did the Masoretes ever write that [Yod-shewa-heh-defective
holem-waw-qamets-heh] should not be read as "Jehovah"?
   
The Hebrew word that immediately follows [Yod-shewa-heh-defective
holem-waw-qamets-he] appears to be Elohim [a.k.a. Elohiym].

Dave Donnelly
____________________________________________________________
Project Management Cert
Villanova PMP&#174 & CAPM&#174 Classes. Average Salary For PMPs is $100K
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c2758206804160af6st03duc
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