Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Spyros Karalis <haghios AT yahoo.gr>]

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Spyros Karalis

--- Στις Κυρ., 04/04/10, ο/η b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org 
<b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org> έγραψε:

Από: b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org <b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Θέμα: b-hebrew Digest, Vol 88, Issue 3
Προς: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Ημερομηνία: Κυριακή, 4 Απρίλιος 2010, 20:20

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Today's Topics:

   1. dagesh forte and dagesh lene (Isaac Fried)
   2. Re: dagesh forte and dagesh lene (Isaac Fried)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 19:55:15 -0400
From: Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>
Subject: [b-hebrew] dagesh forte and dagesh lene
To: B-Hebrew List <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Cc: B-Hebrew List <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <000E6039-A2DB-4A50-998E-AB4ADFDFEA5E AT math.bu.edu>
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Here are some of my thoughts on the Hebrew dagesh:

1. The dagesh "forte" appears after patax, xirik, qubuc, (segol). In  
my opinion, it preceded the NIKUD, and served to provide hints as to  
the proper reading of the consonantal text. It has nothing to do with  
"gemination".
Examples:

          ??????, ???????, ??????

2. The dagesh forte is not placed in the letters ????? nor in a  
letter marked by Schwa. in the latter case it is transported forward  
to become the dagesh lene.

3. Because it is otherwise redundant, the moved dagesh is kept only  
in the influenced ?????? letters.
Examples:

        ??????????, ????????, ?????????,  
????????, ?????????

Counter examples:

       ???????, ?????????, ????????,  
???????, ???????, ????????, ???????

4. The dagesh in an initial ?????? letter is a vestige of a dot  
that used to mark the beginning of a word.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 10:36:00 -0400
From: Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] dagesh forte and dagesh lene
To: AMK Judaica <amkjudaica AT hotmail.com>
Cc: B-Hebrew List <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <D2C62B9E-9CDF-4B46-8818-FBFEFAF53D6D AT math.bu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=WINDOWS-1255;    delsp=yes;
    format=flowed

Methinks that when the NAKDANIM removed this ancient, initial dagesh  
(as the writing techniques improved and it became superfluous ) they  
left it only where it mattered. There are punctuated Hebrew books  
nowadays, for instance the Oxford Hebrew-English dictionary, without  
any dgeshim, except in ? ? ? .

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Apr 4, 2010, at 9:57 AM, AMK Judaica wrote:

> "4. The dagesh in an initial ?????? letter is a vestige of a dot  
> that used to mark the beginning of a word."
>
> why only these letters?
>
> kol tuv,
> ari kinsberg
> brooklyn, new york
>
> > CC: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > From: if AT math.bu.edu
> > Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 19:55:15 -0400
> > To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: [b-hebrew] dagesh forte and dagesh lene
> >
> >
> > Here are some of my thoughts on the Hebrew dagesh:
> >
> > 1. The dagesh "forte" appears after patax, xirik, qubuc, (segol). In
> > my opinion, it preceded the NIKUD, and served to provide hints as to
> > the proper reading of the consonantal text. It has nothing to do  
> with
> > "gemination".
> > Examples:
> >
> > ??????, ???????, ??????
> >
> > 2. The dagesh forte is not placed in the letters ????? nor in a
> > letter marked by Schwa. in the latter case it is transported forward
> > to become the dagesh lene.
> >
> > 3. Because it is otherwise redundant, the moved dagesh is kept only
> > in the influenced ?????? letters.
> > Examples:
> >
> > ??????????, ????????, ?????????,
> > ????????, ?????????
> >
> > Counter examples:
> >
> > ???????, ?????????, ????????,
> > ???????, ???????, ????????, ???????
> >
> > 4. The dagesh in an initial ?????? letter is a vestige of a dot
> > that used to mark the beginning of a word.
> >
> > Isaac Fried, Boston University
> > _______________________________________________
> > b-hebrew mailing list
> > b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more  
> from your inbox. See how.



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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] dagesh forte and dagesh lene
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Formally, the punctuation of Χ“ΦΌΦ°Χ‘ΦΈΧ¨Φ°ΧšΦΈ (with the personal  
pronoun אכה instead of אΧͺΧ” ) is correct since there is a qamatz  
under the B, and a dagesh (not "forte", nor "lene") does not follow a  
qamatz. But, דְּבַרְכ֢ם (with the personal pronoun אכם  
instead of אΧͺם ) is irregular as the B is here marked with a patax.  
A dages follows a patax, but if the next letter has a schwa, then the  
dagesh is moved forward, so that we should have had here  
*דְּבַרְכּ֢ם with a hard K.
I believe the dagesh (that in my opinion preceded the NIKUD) more  
than the NIKUD, for instance, the lack of dagesh in the letter P of  
Χ¨Φ΄Χ“Φ°Χ€Χ•ΦΌ suggests to me that this is a newer pronunciation for a  
possibly older *Χ¨Φ°Χ“ΦΉΧ€Χ•ΦΌ likewise Χ¨Φ΄Χ‘Φ°Χ‘Χ•ΦΉΧͺ for  
Χ¨Φ°Χ‘ΦΈΧ‘Χ•ΦΉΧͺ*, and more of the like.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Apr 4, 2010, at 10:10 PM, Vadim Cherny wrote:

> The problem with two dageshes is why would the Masoretes mark two  
> different phenomena with one sign?
>
> I suggest reading both dageshes as a pause (vocal stop).
>
> Dagesh kal resyllabifies words to break consonantal clusters to  
> provide for clear chanting (ni-zchar - ni-'char, but niz-char).
>
> Dagesh hazak protects posttonic vowel by causing gemination.
>
> This explains three odd cases.
>
> Word-initial dagesh breaks consonantal clusters: natan vakar would  
> be chanted as nata-nvakar - nata-'vakar. Dagesh breaks this  
> concatenation.
>
> Dagesh after ha- and wa- is actually a posttonic dagesh after a  
> secondary stress which falls on ha- and wa-.
>
> No dagesh in dvarcha because the Masoretes were primarily concerned  
> with chanting, and d'va-'r'cha is perfectly chantable.
>
> Vadim Cherny