Biblical Hebrew Forum

[John Estell <oldearther AT yahoo.com>]

"I'm not up to answering Harold directly. How can one have a discussion where
I say one thing, then Harold answer me in the next line claiming that I said
the opposite of what I just said? Especially after I said the same thing two
or three times?"
 
Harold and Karl,
 
I have been enjoying your exchanges and have learned a good deal from them.  
 
Karl, what exactly did you say that was misconstrued by Harold?

John Estell




________________________________
From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
To: "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 6:21:23 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] barak (bless? curse?) in the Book of Job

David:

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 2:38 PM, David Kummerow 
<farmerjoeblo AT hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> >  >
> >  > You grammarians make mountains out of molehills. There's no oath
> > here, just
> >  > simple action and consequence. Why not just take things at face value?
> >  >
> >
> > HH: Because it's a known usage of the phrase )M L), and it fits here,
> > and your idea really does not work because there is no specification of
> > wrong behavior with yours.
> >  >
>
>
> Exactly. Conklin has recently done an exhaustive analysis of all oath
> formula in the Hebrew Bible. These verses in Job are analysed and fit
> the pattern of oath formula where the curse half is suppressed (be it
> for politeness reasons, assumed cultural knowledge, etc.).
>
> Conklin, Blane W. 2005. "Oath Formulae in Classical Hebrew and Other
> Semitic Languages." PhD diss., University of Chicago.
>
>  From memory, I think the work is now published.
>
> Regards,
> David Kummerow


Either you two are using a different definition of "oath" than what I have
learned, or this is not an oath statement. I see just a simple "if…then…"
statement where the "if" is given in the negative, in a manner used
elsewhere in Tanakh ( the )M L) phrase is not limited to oath statements),
where the "then" is the consequence if the action of the if statement is not
carried out. The unstated implicated completion of the thought is that if
the action is carried out, then there will be a different outcome.

In the particulars, if God doesn't allow Job to lose his wealth and children
1:11, then Job will bless God. In 2:5 extended to his health. Where is the
oath? Where is the need to change the wording of the sentence from "bless"
to "curse"?

I'm not up to answering Harold directly. How can one have a discussion where
I say one thing, then Harold answer me in the next line claiming that I said
the opposite of what I just said? Especially after I said the same thing two
or three times?

Karl W. Randolph.
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>From oldearther AT yahoo.com  Thu Jan 29 19:42:42 2009
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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 16:42:35 -0800 (PST)
From: John Estell <oldearther AT yahoo.com>
To: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>,
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] barak (bless? curse?) in the Book of Job
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"...when people see (WLM they assume that eternity is meant, when only a time 
span of unknown length
but which has a definite end is meant in the text."

See Psalms 41:14, 90:2, 103:17, and 106:48.   Isn't God to be blessed forever?

John Estell


________________________________
From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
To: "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 12:18:53 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] barak (bless? curse?) in the Book of Job

John:

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 8:23 AM, John Estell <oldearther AT yahoo.com> wrote:

> Karl,
>
> *"But outside of slang where thereis a deliberate attempt at obfuscation,
> no where is that semantic range so
> broad that a word can have one meaning and its opposite."
> *
>
> **
>
> What about *olam* (and in Greek, *aion/aionios*) ?  Can't that refer to
> both time and eternity?  Aren't these opposite meanings?
>
> The question of (WLM was debated in greater detail before. It comes from
the same root as "to cause to be unknown" i.e. to hide, (LMWT alamut the
unknown, T(LMH unknown thing, and in reference to time, it is to a time of
unknown span. By extension, eternity also extends off into the unknown. So
the two are related, not opposite.

This has often led to misunderstanding of texts, as when people see (WLM
they assume that eternity is meant, when only a time span of unknown length
but which has a definite end is meant in the text.

The Greek word refers to an eon, a very long span of time, and by extension,
eternity. But that's Greek.

>
> John Estell
>

Karl W. Randolph.
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>From hholmyard3 AT earthlink.net  Thu Jan 29 19:48:34 2009
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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 18:48:43 -0600
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] "daughter of Zion" [was: (bless? curse?) in the Book
 of Job]
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Doug,

Thanks for the kind word.
> Could you allow me to present something which as seems the case with
> "daughter of Edom" that it is referring to the future generations ,
> also Math 21:5  "Tell the daughter of Zion behold  Your king is
> coming" , and how could that be anyone other than Israel , for who
> esle did the King come for.

HH: One issue is that Zion is a name for Jerusalem by synecdoche, a part
taken for the whole (the hill for the whole city). And Matthew 21:5
describes Jesus entering Jerusalem:

CSB Matthew 21:1  When they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage
at the Mount of Olives, Jesus then sent two disciples, 2 telling them,
"Go into the village ahead of you. At once you will find a donkey tied
there, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to Me. 3 If anyone
says anything to you, you should say that the Lord needs them, and
immediately he will send them." 4 This took place so that what was
spoken through the prophet might be fulfilled: 5 Tell Daughter Zion,
"See, your King is coming to you, gentle, and mounted on a donkey, even
on a colt, the foal of a beast of burden." 6 The disciples went and did
just as Jesus directed them. 7 They brought the donkey and the colt;
then they laid their robes on them, and He sat on them. 8 A very large
crowd spread their robes on the road; others were cutting branches from
the trees and spreading them on the road. 9 Then the crowds who went
ahead of Him and those who followed kept shouting: Hosanna to the Son of
David! Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the
highest heaven! 10 When He entered Jerusalem, the whole city was shaken,
saying, "Who is this?"
>
> Also in Is 66:67 we see how   "before  she traivailed she gave birth"
> , regarding the male child and offspring , then we read , "for as soon
> as Zion travailed" , this makes me think that Zion is the mother here .

HH: Zion in Isa 66:7 is the mother, but again, Zion represents
Jerusalem. The immediately preceding verse represents a city with a
temple in it. Israel, when faithful to the Lord, had only one temple,
and it was in Jerusalem:

 6 A sound of uproar from the city! A voice from the temple-- the voice
of the LORD, paying back His enemies what they deserve! 7 Before Zion
was in labor, she gave birth; before she was in pain, she delivered a boy.
>
>
> Is 49:14 "But Zion said the Lord has forsaken me" , this also suggests
> that , here Zion is claiming to be forsaken, we know it was Israel ,
> Zion here as in Is 66:8 seems to be representing Israel .

HH: In Isa 49:14 Zion again seems to be associated with a city that has
walls (v. 16):

For the LORD has comforted His people, And will have compassion on His
afflicted. 14 But Zion said, "The LORD has forsaken me, And the Lord has
forgotten me." 15 "Can a woman forget her nursing child, And have no
compassion on the son of her womb? Even these may forget, but I will not
forget you. 16 "Behold, I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands;
Your walls are continually before Me. 17 "Your builders hurry;

HH: But you are right.  Jerusalem can symbolize the nation of Israel and
seems to do so in Isa 66:7-8, although the following verses (vv. 10-11)
make it clear that Isaiah is talking about Jerusalem as the mother:

 Isa 66:7: Before Zion was in labor, she gave birth; before she was in
pain, she delivered a boy. 8 Who has heard of such a thing? Who has seen
such things? Can a land be born in one day, or a nation be delivered in
an instant? Yet as soon as Zion was in labor, she gave birth to her
sons. 9 "Will I bring a baby to the point of birth and not deliver it?"
says the LORD; "or will I who deliver, close the womb?" says your God.
10 Be glad for Jerusalem and rejoice over her, all who love her. Rejoice
greatly with her, all who mourn over her-- 11 so that you may nurse and
be satisfied from her comforting breast and drink deeply and delight

> Then on Jesus rerurning for Israel it sems to be that he comes for the
> "daughter of Zion" , meaning a future generation of Zion which would
> be the Israel that accepted Jesus .
HH: You are right about this in my view, because the entrance of Jesus
into Jerusalem in the first century was only part of the fulfillment of
the prophecy in Zechariah 9:

NAS Matthew 21:5 "Say to the daughter of Zion, 'Behold your King is
coming to you, Gentle, and mounted on a donkey, Even on a colt, the foal
of a beast of burden.'"

HH: If you read the original context in Zechariah from which Matthew
quotes, it is not the non-militaristic setting of the first century, but
a time when Israel has defeated her military enemies:

Zech 9:6 A mongrel people will live in Ashdod, and I will destroy the
pride of the Philistines. 7 I will remove the blood from their mouths
and the detestable things from between their teeth. Then they too will
become a remnant for our God; they will become like a clan in Judah and
Ekron like the Jebusites. 8 I will set up camp at My house against an
army, against those who march back and forth, and no oppressor will
march against them again, for now I have seen with My own eyes. 9
Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout in triumph, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your King is coming to you; He is righteous and victorious, humble
and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. 10 I will cut
off the chariot from Ephraim and the horse from Jerusalem. The bow of
war will be removed, and He will proclaim peace to the nations. His
dominion will extend from sea to sea, from the Euphrates River to the
ends of the earth.

HH: This is a battle context, where the king has defeated the army foes
and takes power over all the earth. This matches many prophecies about
the second coming of the Lord Jesus to establish his kingdom over the
earth. But the equation of Zion with Israel is easy to understand in our
own context. Below is an article I took off the web about the U.S.
relations with Kyrgyzstan. In the article, the U.S. is three times named
as "Washington," because decisions for our nation come out of
Washington. Jerusalem was the capital city of Israel, so one could speak
of Zion or Jerusalem doing this or that, and potentially be referring to
the whole nation.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/world/10796846.asp

*Kyrgyzstan to close US airbase, Washington says no plans made

**The United States has no plans to close its military airbase in
Kyrgyzstan, an official said despite the earlier reports that Kyrgyz
administration is set to order the closure of a US base. (UPDATED)*

U.S. Central Command chief General David Petraeus, visiting Tajikistan
as part of a regional tour that also takes him to Kyrgyzstan this
weekend, said the United States had no plans to stop using the airbase.



"We look forward to discussing the future of the base there and we
certainly have no plans to change anything frankly," he was quoted as
telling reporters by Reuters.



Washington <http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/washington/> set up the
base, now home to more than 1,000 military personnel, in ex-Soviet
Kyrgyzstan in 2001 after the start of the U.S.-led military campaign in
Afghanistan.



Earlier on Saturday, a senior Kyrgyz official told AFP that Kyrgyzstan
will order the closure of a US military airbase used to support
operations in Afghanistan "in a matter of days" in exchange for a loan
from Russia.

Russia, which also operates a military airbase in Kyrgyzstan, saw the
arrival of U.S. forces as a Washington
<http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/washington/> attempt to squeeze
Russian influence in the ex-Soviet region.


Yours,
Harold Holmyard