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  • From: Yosef Shalom <yossiyeshua AT yahoo.com>
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Melo haGoyim
  • Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 19:51:41 -0800 (PST)

Karl,

You said...

"his seed will become a filling of nations."

After comparing the hebrew melo ha- construction with other nouns in other
passages, I get the sense that an even clearer translation might be...

"his seed will fill up the nations."

Anyone have any disagreements with this?

Here is one of those examples....

Ex. 16:32 "Fill an omer [melo haOmer] of it to be kept..."

So, the word following melo and the article is the entity which will be
filled up with something, and that something is, in the case of Exodus manna,
and in the case of Genesis, Ephraim's seed (descendents).

>From my perspective then, I would think the english translation "his seed
>will become a multitude of nations" is not too exact. It's not that
>Ephraim's seed will become the goyim, but that his seed will fill up the
>goyim with itself. Perhaps the "becoming a multitude of nations" can be seen
>as a secondary result, but all that is literally given in the text is that
>the seed would fill up the nations with itself.

Understood in this way, I think a better fulfillment of this prophecy is
found in looking at the eventual fate of the northern kingdom of Israel that
would eventually be called "Ephraim" as a whole. These 10 tribes were exiled
into the nations, never to come back as Judah would from Babylon. These
tribes were "seeded" into the nations, and thus "filled them up."

Joseph Simpson
New York



K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com> wrote: Joseph:
Would not the literal translation be "his seed will become a filling of
nations"? And in that Ephraim's descendants were split between filling
nations on both sides of the Jordan, was that not fulfilled?

Karl W. Randolph.

On Jan 2, 2008 11:00 AM, Yosef Shalom wrote:

> I have a question about translating a phrase here in this verse...
> Gen 48:19 "And his father refused and said, I know, my son, I know. He
> also shall become a people, and he also shall be great, but truly his
> younger brother shall be greater than he is, and his seed shall become a
> multitude of nations."
>
> The phrase 'multitude of nations' here is in Hebrew 'melo haGoyim' and the
> verb is yhyeh.
> Is the literal meaning here that Ephraim's seed would BE FILLED UP with a
> multitude of nations, or that his seed would become, ie, transformed into a
> multitude of nations.
> I'm not quite sure about the word 'multitude' since that denotes simply a
> large number, where as 'melo' seems to gives us more, ie a large quantity
> within another entity, filling that up.
>
> Thanks,
> Joseph Simpson
> New York
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] The root SLH
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Pere,
I will give you a detailed answer, but first explain to me (no traslations
and no converses please!) what you think XALAH, 'ill', means.

__________

We should study in detail the 75 issues in the Bible where verb XALAH
appears (in all forms and conjugations).
But taking as a model 1K 17:17, where a boy XALAH and ... died, I think
XALAH means (in qal) "to be weak, sick", as we read in dictionaries.
Now, I think all of us know (either in theory or in practice) what "to be
weak, sick" means: so no need of explanations on this...

Pere Porta




Isaac Fried, Boston university

----- Original Message -----
From: <pporta AT oham.net>
To: "Isaac Fried" <if AT math.bu.edu>
Cc: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] The root SLH


> It is my understanding that this grouping is governed
> by the equivalence of
>
> B, P, W
>
> G, H, X, K, Q
>
> D, Z, T, Y, S, C $, T
>
> L
>
> M
>
> N
>
> R
>
> ________
>
> I think you should explain what does "equivalence" mean within your
> theory.
>
> For instance:
>
> 1. Does it mean that two words that differ only by one letter must have a
> similar meaning if this different letter is one of the group you have
> created? (Let us say GALAH, to uncover, and XALAH, to be sick)
> 2. Does "equivalence" mean that words having one of these letters of the
> group as one of their root letters can be dealt -or must be- with
> according to some given rules that apply to all words of this type?
> 3. Summing up: what does "equivalence" mean in your theory?
> Please, give your answer up without forgetting some illustrating examples
> too.
>
> Pere Porta
> Barcelona (Spain)
> _________
>
>
> with each letter being actually a single consonant root, in particular L
> indicating elevation. By this hypothesis the root SLH [H here is just a
> filler] is a variant of the roots DLH, *ZLH, TLH, *YLH, SLH, CLH, $LH,
> TLH,
> where * indicates a potential root not in use. All these roots essentially
> and inherently mean ‘pull up, pull out, draw up, draw out, extract’.
> Hence
> a
> sensible translation of the Psalms verse is ‘you pulled out all those
> deviating from your laws’.
>
> Now we understand also the relationship between the biblical SILON,
> ‘thorn’,
> and the modern SILON, ‘jet’, as in MA-TOS SILON.
>
> DELET, door’, is methinks but a TELET, a hanging flap over the entrance.
>
> Isaac Fried, Boston University
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <pporta AT oham.net>
> To: "Isaac Fried" <if AT math.bu.edu>
> Cc: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 7:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] The root SLH
>
>
>>> I will give you a detailed response, but first explain to me this.
>>> SALITA of Psalms 119:118 is translated by the NAB as 'reject', [the KJV
>>> has it as 'trodden down']. Is this translation correct, and if yes how
>>> do we know it to be so?
>>
>> Isaac,
>>
>> you are putting a question here which is difficult to answer to. Mainly,
>> to my sense, because Ps 119:118 is the only place where this verb SALAH
>> appears in the Bible (in qal) (the word T:SWLEH in Job 28:16 comes from
>> another quite different SALAH)
>> We can often be accurate as regards the "exact" translation of a given
>> word because we can verify the different meanings or shades of meaning
>> this word got in other places of the bible (mainly in the same book we
>> are dealing with... )
>> But here it is not so.
>> The dictionary (my dictionary) meaning of SALAH (in qal) is "to make
>> light of", "toss aside". If this meaning is right (or if these meanings
>> are right), both translations you mention are (would be) wrong... because
>> either "reject" or "tread down" are concepts that differ from "to make
>> light of" and from "toss aside".
>> One must too take into account the meaning or sense of the preceding
>> verses (117, 116, 115...) or even of the whose psalm (which verses I have
>> not read nor the psalm...): I feel this can also help to fix the right
>> translation of SALAH in Ps 119:118 but, of course, it is not sure it will
>> help.
>>
>> I think this is all I can say as a replaying to your question.
>>
>> Pere Porta
>> Barcelona (Spain)
> [cut]
>
>
>
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