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  • From: Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
  • To: b-hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Genesis 12: 5: Are "Souls" Slaves?
  • Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:28:43 +0200

I don't really know what the difference between "simple" and "literal" is, but fine, Rashi says "simple". That means that it is a possible explanation, certainly not "beyond belief", as you wrote.

And the other commentators I mentioned put the "slave" interpretation first.

Now the whole purpose of my mentioning it in the whole place was to explain where Alter was coming from, and that such an interpretation does exist. As I wrote, I don't agree with it.

As far as "nephesh" being in the singular, it is very common for intangible nouns to be stated in the singular even when the plural is meant.

Yigal Levin


----- Original Message ----- From: "Shoshanna Walker" <rosewalk AT concentric.net>
To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Genesis 12: 5: Are "Souls" Slaves?


I don't have all the originals to read, but Rashi does not say what
you said he says, he says converts, but the SIMPLE explanation is
avadim - he doesn't say "Literal". Because obviously, Nefesh is not
slave in the literal meaning.

I asked why Nefesh is singular because it was a real question.

You haven't proposed an answer, the answer I propose is that it is
singular because they were all united in something, ie; belief in G-d

Shoshanna



Shoshanna,

I don't care what the Stone Chumash says. Read the commentators themselves,
in the original. Saadiah actually ONLY mentions slaves. All of the others
mention both posibilities. Rashi first says "converts" and then says "but
literally it means slaves". Radak and Ibn Ezra first explain that it means
slaves and then say that "there are those" who say that it means people who
they had "converted".

Also, what do you mean by "note- "servants" not "slaves" "? Do you mean that
the Stone Chumash uses "servants"? So what? The commentators write
"'avadim".

Besides which, I started with stating that I did NOT agree with the "slave"
interpretation - I only cited the commentators because you wrote that "It is
beyond belief that this could be construed as slaves". It's obviously not
"beyond belief".

I also wrote that I agreed that Abraham and Sarah did not literally "create"
souls - which is why these people must have had a deeper connection with
them.

The fact that "nephesh" is in the singular here does not prove anything.

Yigal Levin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shoshanna Walker" <rosewalk AT concentric.net>
To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 4:07 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Genesis 12: 5: Are "Souls" Slaves?


Stone Chumash:

"The souls refer to those whom they had converted to faith in Hashem,
for Abraham converted the men and Sarah converted the women.
According to the SIMPLE meaning, however, it refers to the servants
they had acquired (Rashi) [note- "servants" not "slaves" -
Shoshanna], WHO HAD AGREED UNANIMOUSLY TO ACCOMPANY AVRAHAM ON HIS
MISSION (Radak)"

See, Yigaal, you don't tell us the whole story.

Moreover, HOW in the world would a human being (Avraham and Sarah) be
able to CREATE ("asher asu" - ie' Avraham and Sarah, plural) a
Nefesh, ie; a spiritual aspect of a person???? Because the Torah
specifically states that they made a SPIRITUAL being, this must mean
spiritual ELEVATION of a human being, ie; conversion to knowledge and
worship of G-d.

Also, why is Nefesh singular?

Shoshanna





Actually, Shoshanna, Saadiah Gaon, Rashi, Ibn Ezra and Radak all interpret
it as meaning slaves, either before or after metioning that they could
also
be people who they had "converted".

Yigal Levin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shoshanna Walker" <rosewalk AT concentric.net>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Genesis 12: 5: Are "Souls" Slaves?


It is the consensus (unanimous as far as I know) among Chazal, that
these refer to the people who he "converted" to the knowledge of G-d.
It is beyond belief that this could be construed as slaves.

Shoshanna


Genesis 12: 5 tells us that certain people came with Abraham and Lot
from
Harran to Canaan, who almost certainly were not members of the
immediate family
of Abraham or Lot: "the souls that they had gotten in Haran". Are these
people "slaves", who had been "bought" by Abraham and Lot in Harran?
Or,
rather, are these people distant relatives of Abraham's father,
whose families were
the social equals of Abraham's father's family, and who were on a long
caravan trip out to Mesopotamia with Abraham's father's family as
security guards?
Here is the JPS1917 translation of Genesis 12: 5:
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