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  • From: "jason silber" <uzisilber AT gmail.com>
  • To: "JimStinehart AT aol.com" <JimStinehart AT aol.com>
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Was Abraham Born in Mesopotamia?
  • Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 11:25:09 -0500

JIm,

Did anyone raise the issue that Ur Kasdim didnt exist during the time Avram
was supposed to have lived?
and that since Ur was a major sophisiticated city during Babylonian exile it
is plausible that the editors of the tanakh in the 6 century BCE inserted an
Ur background to abraham to lend an air of sophistcation to Avraham and his
descendents?
Uzi



On 11/3/07, JimStinehart AT aol.com <JimStinehart AT aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Rev. Bryant J. Williams III:
> 1. You wrote: "Look at Genesis 11:27-32 in which it unambiguously
> states that Terah lived in Ur of the Chaldees."
> The text says nothing of the kind. Rather, Genesis 11: 28 says that Haran
> died in Ur, in the presence of his father Terakh. The text never
> says that
> Terakh lived in Ur. That's because Terakh did not live in Ur. Terakh
> had led
> his family on a one-time caravan expedition from Canaan to Mesopotamia.
> Haran had the misfortune of dying on that one-time caravan trip (the only
> caravan
> trip the family every made), at Ur in far-off southern
> Mesopotamia. Haran's
> father, and Haran's MWLDT, that is, Haran's father and Haran's father's
> descendants, were all there at Ur on that caravan trip to witness Haran's
> unfortunate demise, as Haran died far from home and predeceased his own
> father.
> The Patriarchal narratives never say or imply that Terakh lived in Ur.
> 1. You wrote: "[T]he Abrahamic Covenant statement in
> 12:1 [is:] "The
> LORD had said to Abram, 'Leave your country, your people and your
> father's
> household and go to the land I will show you' ".
> Genesis 12: 1 says nothing of the sort. The word "people", which is "am"
> in Hebrew, and which in both languages always includes (though is not
> limited
> to) ancestors, never appears in the Patriarchal narratives when anyone is
> at
> Ur or Harran. No, the word that is consistently used when a pre-Hebrew
> or
> Hebrew is in Mesopotamia is MWLDT: "father's descendants".
> At Genesis 12: 1, YHWH accurately tells Abraham to leave Abraham's MWLDT,
> that is, to leave Abraham's father's descendants, in leaving Harran. The
> accent in the word MWLDT is on one's living brothers. At this
> point, Abraham has
> only one living brother: Nahor. Nahor must stay behind in Harran to
> take
> care of their infirm father, Terakh, who is too frail to make it back to
> Canaan. So in leaving Harran, Abraham is leaving behind Abraham's only
> living
> brother. Abraham is also leaving behind most, though not all, of his
> father's
> other descendants. So YHWH's words are, not surprisingly, completely
> accurate. Abraham must leave his MWLDT, and his father, in Harran. But
> YHWH does
> not tell Abraham to leave Abraham's "people"/"am" in Harran. Abraham's
> ancestors, other than his father, were never in Mesopotamia. So Abraham
> is not
> leaving his "people" or his "am" in leaving Harran.
> 1. We can see that Terakh was trying to get back to Canaan:
> "And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran, his son's son,
> and
> Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth
> with
> them from Ur of the [Kasdim], to go into the land of Canaan; and they
> came
> unto Haran, and dwelt there." Genesis 11: 31
> Because of infirmity, Terakh cannot make it back to his homeland
> in Canaan,
> but rather gets stuck in Harran, not being able to return home after
> the long
> caravan expedition. Nahor must stay in Harran as well, to look after his
> ailing father. That is why Nahor's descendants, such as Rebekah and
> Laban and
> Leah and Rachel, end up growing up in Harran, as the rest of your post
> points
> out. But Nahor was not a native of Harran. Nahor and Terakh got stuck
> in
> Harran when Terakh was too infirm to make it back to the family homeland
> in
> Canaan.
> 1. When Abraham dies and is buried in Canaan, the text tells us that
> Abraham was gathered to his am/people/ancestors, which makes sense, since
> the
> Hebrews were indigenous to Canaan, both in secular history and in the
> Patriarchal narratives:
> "And Abraham expired, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of
> years; and was gathered to his people ["am"]. And Isaac and
> Ishmael his
> sons buried him in the cave…Mamre [at Hebron, in Canaan]." Genesis 25:
> 8-9
> The word "am"/"people"/ancestors is often used when the Patriarchs are in
> Canaan, but is never used when anyone is at Ur or Harran. That's because
> the
> Hebrews are indigenous to Canaan, not to Mesopotamia.
> The text of the Patriarchal narratives has pinpoint historical accuracy,
> but
> we must be very careful to examine exactly what the text actually
> says. If
> we can understand how the author of the Patriarchal narratives uses the
> key
> word MWLDT ("mowledeth"), we can see that the Patriarchal narratives,
> like
> modern historians, see the Hebrews as being indigenous to Canaan, not to
> Mesopotamia.
> Jim Stinehart
> Evanston, Illinois
>
>
>
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