Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

b-hebrew - [b-hebrew] Using an unpointed text

b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Biblical Hebrew Forum

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: "JAMES CHRISTIAN READ" <JCR128 AT student.anglia.ac.uk>
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: [b-hebrew] Using an unpointed text
  • Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 09:13:11 +0100

YS: No. First, the original statement in the sbl-site article is:
"My students are required to learn the vowels for forms such
as the strong verb and some pronominal suffixes. This is
mainly for pronunciation purposes. For most other verb forms,
they must know consonantal changes ..." This hardly
suggests that the data for the Massoretic text should not be
abandoned.

JCR: Sorry! I thought you were debating with Karl and I
and whoever else on this list sees the benefits of
reading unpointed hebrew primarily and using the
Masoretic text only secondarily. I didn't realise that
the author of this article was a member of the list.
In any case I haven't seen him respond yet. Until he
does would you like to debate the opinions of
participating members making careful attention not to
misrepresent their views as they have been clearly
expressed for your convenience?

KWR: Karl has his own idea of a syllabic structure
for Hebrew that is odds with both the Massoretic tradition
and all spoken and written Semitic languages.

JCR: No he doesn't. He expressed a workable historical
model and the pros for it. He made it quite clear that
he is undecided either way because of the lack of
decisive data. I respect your experience with Hebrew
and its cognates and I respect your active participation
in this list which has helped many issues to be
resolved. You have always proved to be on hand to
provide useful and relevant data from academic sources.
However, I cannot respect your occasional
misrepresentation of other member's views, especially
when they have been so clearly spelled out for you.

YS: You
suggested a "Beginner's unpointed text reading course"
which "should bring the student to be able to read and
understand as much authentic (non-doctored) hebrew text as
possible in as short a time." If you think one can learn to
read unvocalized Hebrew without having first mastered
vocalized Hebrew, or if you think this doesn't mean "abandoning
Massoretic data," you're mistaken.

JCR: Well you can safely rest assured that this is not
my view and that I am not as mistaken as you
misrepresent my views. Nobody is suggesting teaching
Hebrew without vocalisation. Just how would students
pronounce the words they read? All I am suggesting is
teaching students to read vocalised Hebrew without the
need to have printed, potentially incorrect, vowel
points on the medium they are reading from. I am
suggesting that students should be familiarised with
the variant vocalisations that the same consonants can
have and to be taught to make good use of context to
make the decision. Where do we get the possible
vocalisations from? Yes! That't right! From the
massoretic tradition. Now, just how could you possibly
label that as 'abandonging the Massoretic tradition'.
The Massoretic text is an excellent reference point for
passages with genuine ambiguities. When the student
comes across such a genuine ambiguity there are several
questions they can ask themselves:

1) What are the possible readings?
2) Which readings make sense?
3) Statistically speaking, which reading is most likely?
4) Which reading would my instincts prefer?
5) What does the Massoretic tradition prefer?
6) What does the LXX tradition prefer?
7) What does the Vulgate tradition prefer?
8) If my instincts are contradictory could I make a strong linguistic case
for abandoning the Massoretic, the LXX and the Vulgate traditions?

YS: Being able to spot
potential ambiguities comes not from learning the unvocalized
text, but from learning the vocalized text to such a degree
that one can understand the various vocalizations each word
can take.

JCR: Agreed! Where we differ is in my opinion that it
is better to practice reading a vocalised text without
vowel points to reach this level of understanding.

YS: In general, my position is that one needs to be adept at the
Massoretic tradition, as well as be familiar with one additional
NWS language (preferably Ugaritic or Phoenician), and have
access to some relevant resources (DNWSI, HALOT).

JCR: Knowing a cognate well could help but does not
automatically give a superior knowledge. Nor does
owning good reference works automatically give a
superior knowledge. You evidently have good knowledge
of cognates and of reference works to the point where
you can find relevant academic references in very
short periods of time for participation in discussions.
But ask yourself this honest question - if you were
to abandon your reference works for a day and pick up
a photocopy of the Isaiah dead sea scroll just how
confident do you feel in your ability to read the
entire scroll with no reference to the Massoretic
tradition and no reference to any other form of
knowledge base than information that you have in head
as a result of hands on experience with Hebrew text?

YS: With
all this preparation, one can then begin to analyze such texts
as the DSS, nor will it be an experience where one can pick
up a text and read it through. Being able to read it through
with some effectiveness may be acquired if one is adept at
the Massoretic tradition, but it should also be clear at this
point that one could easily make mistakes. Careful
analysis of each word would be necessary, considering
carefully all alternatives.

JCR: Actually, for the experienced reader of unpointed
text most of the reading would be routine. The
ambiguities form the vast minority of the reading and
the reader that is used to reading unpointed text is
likely to have better instincts which resolve those
ambiguities in faster times with no need to refer to
traditions or reference works.

In summary, you generally get better at doing what you
practice. A reader who practices reading text with
vowel points will get better at reading text with
vowel points. A reader who practices reading text with
consonants and matres lectionis only will get better at
reading text with consonants and matres lectionis only.
You get as better at swimming by practicing
hang-gliding as you do by regularly swimming. Do you
have any plausible objections to this basic observation?
If not, then I really don't see your problem.

-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------

James Christian Read - BSc Computer Science
http://www.lamie.org/hebrew - thesis1: concept driven machine
translation using the Aleppo codex
http://www.lamie.org/lad-sim.doc - thesis2: language acquisition simulation
http://www.lamie.org/ngeltah

-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
























































































































anslation using the Aleppo codex
http://www.lamie.org/lad-sim.doc - thesis2: language acquisition simulation
http://www.lamie.org/ngeltah

-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------








































































































Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page