Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Brak <Brak AT neo.rr.com>]

The reason why I am so concerned about this is because I am writing a 
computer program that allows you to enter a root and the form you want 
it in, and it would give it to you.

So if you entered $MR, Qal Perfect 3MS the program would give you  $FMAR
Or if you entered (ZB, Nif'al Imperfect 1CP the program would give you 
N"(FZ"B

So hence the words BRK and KRT are causing a big problem.

Is Hebrew so haphazard that such a program would be impossible to 
create, that basically every word really has to be treated is if it is 
in a world of its own? I mean what is the logic for BRK and KRT to be 
treated different?

It is beginning to get frustrating!


B"H
John Steven

"If you don't behave as you believe, you will end by believing as you 
behave."
-Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen.


Harold Holmyard wrote:

> Dear John,
>  
>
> > I didn't get your last post before I submitted mine.
> > I just got done reading it.
> >  
> >    
>
> Thanks.
>  
>
> > I don't have access to GKC.
> >  
> >    
>
> Well, grammars like GKC exist to answers questions like this.
>  
>
> > I have found some other Resh with a dagesh in them:
> > 1 Sam 1:6
> > 1 Sam 10:24
> > 1 Sam 17:25
> > Just to name a few.
> >
> > So this brings me to my question:
> > How do you know?
> >
> > By looking at a root, how can you tell how the Resh is to be handled?
> > Is there a system or method, or is it just haphazard?
> >
> > Very befuddling.
> >  
> >    
>
> Maybe somebody else will answer your questions. For me, I do not worry 
> about such things unless it impacts me in interpreting the Bible. There 
> may be a rule somewhere. There are a lot of things about language that 
> we just accept without getting into all the details. There are many ways 
> to spell sounds in English. I do not ask about a word, why did they 
> spell it like this and not like that? Life is too short, because with 
> language things just develop. It is not always like mathematics. There 
> are people who have posted on this list who probably could give you an 
> answer, but it would take me more research than I am willing to give it 
> right now.
>
> Yours,
> Harold Holmyard
>  
>
> > B"H
> > John Steven
> >
> > "If you don't behave as you believe, you will end by believing as you 
> > behave."
> > -Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen.
> >
> >
> > Harold Holmyard wrote:
> >
> >  
> >    
> >
> > > Dear John,
> > >
> > >
> > >    
> > >      
> > >
> > > > Well I believe I found my answer.
> > > >
> > > > I called up my Hebrew professor from college and asked him.
> > > >
> > > > What he said was that the Resh is not a guttural letter, but since it 
> > > > can't take a dagesh it is sometimes treated like one.
> > > > Hence words with a Resh in the 'Ayin position in the Pi'el and Pu'al 
> > > > forms are categorized as 'Ayin Guttural.
> > > > The reason my grammar book classified KRT as a strong verb is because it 
> > > > isn't found in either Pi'el or Pu'al forms in the Bible.
> > > >
> > > > So if anyone disagrees with this, or finds any fault in the explanation, 
> > > > please do respond.
> > > > If anyone agrees and thinks that it is right on the money, then please 
> > > > respond as well.
> > > >
> > > >   
> > > >
> > > >      
> > > >        
> > > HH: I already gave you my response. You are incorrect above, because KRT 
> > > does occur in the Pual twice, as I stated. But it apparently is an 
> > > exception in that it does not handle the resh as similar verbs like BRK. 
> > > BRK omits the normal strengthening of the second consonant and instead 
> > > lengthens the previous vowel. KRT, although it does have the Pual, does 
> > > not fail to strengthen the resh. There is actually a dagesh dot in the 
> > > resh of one Pual form of KRT (see Ezek 16:4). Did you not understand my 
> > > post, or do you not have access to Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar (GKC) that 
> > > discusses these things?
> > >
> > > Yours,
> > > Harold Holmyard
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >    
> > >      
> > >
> > > > B"H
> > > > John Steven
> > > >
> > > > "If you don't behave as you believe, you will end by believing as you 
> > > > behave."
> > > > -Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Harold Holmyard wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >   
> > > >
> > > >      
> > > >        
> > > >
> > > > > Dear John,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >   
> > > > >     
> > > > >
> > > > >        
> > > > >          
> > > > >
> > > > > > I don't think that's the answer, as the word KRT is classified as a 
> > > > > > Strong Verb.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So we have:
> > > > > > $MR - Strong
> > > > > > KRT - Strong
> > > > > > BRK - 'Ayin Guttural
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >
> > > > > >     
> > > > > >       
> > > > > >
> > > > > >          
> > > > > >            
> > > > > Perhaps KRT is not viewed as being affected much 
> > > > > by the changes that the resh is capable of 
> > > > > bringing. BRK, however, is greatly affected 
> > > > > because it has a large Piel usage. GKC says that 
> > > > > the guttural verbs are really a variant of the 
> > > > > strong verb, because the modifications required by 
> > > > > the gutturals only affect the vowelization, not 
> > > > > the consonants. The grammar adds that the only 
> > > > > real weakness with guttural verbs is the entire 
> > > > > omission of the strengthening in some of the 
> > > > > middle-guttural verbs. This does happen with BRK, 
> > > > > but surprisingly it does not seem to happen with 
> > > > > KRT. GKC lists a couple of KRT forms as exceptions 
> > > > > to this loss of strengthening of the second 
> > > > > guttural. And there are only a couple of relevant 
> > > > > KRT forms, since it does not have a Piel and only 
> > > > > has these two forms in the Pual. Nor does it have 
> > > > > the Hithpael. So perhaps that explains the 
> > > > > difference in classification of the two verbs.
> > > > > See GKC #62 and 64e.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yours,
> > > > > Harold Holmyard
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >   
> > > > >     
> > > > >
> > > > >        
> > > > >          
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