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  • From: JoeWallack AT aol.com
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Definite Article 7:14
  • Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 14:12:01 EDT

In a message dated 6/24/2007 5:37:51 PM Central Daylight Time,
hholmyard3 AT earthlink.net writes:

> Or look at these cases below, all of which take the definite article in
> Hebrew, but an indefinite article in English:
>
> like the heart of a lion (2 Sam 17:10)
>
> as a dog laps (Judges 7:5)
>
> as one hunts a partridge (1 Sam 26:20)
>
> as one rends a kid (Judges 14:6)
>
> If Hebrew could consider all these cases, which are clearly indefinite
> in English, as worthy of a definite article in a generic sense,"
>
>
> JW:
> None of the above are clearly indefinite in English. I've seen English
> translations with "the" for all but
> Judges 14:6. More importantly, none even sound awkward with "the".

HH: Sorry, but they do sound somewhat awkward to me because English does
not usually use the generic definite article this way, preferring an
indefinite article.

JW:
Here I think there is something of a Usage vs. Translation issue. If the
emphasis is on the specific type of animal than "the" should be used for
English. If the emphasis is on the indefinite animal within a type, than "a"
should
be used for English. Maybe the Hebrew is emphasizing the type here where
English would not. If so, a more literal translation would use "the" and a
"dynamic equivalent" translation would use "a", trying to present as if it
was
composed in English. It seems to me that the "proper" translation would be
more
dependent on the objective of the Translator (relative) rather than "right
and
wrong" (absolute).



> JW: I accept that use of the Hebrew definite article may be used to
> emphasize a definite quality that would not be emphasized in English and
hence
> the indefinite in English would be appropriate.

HH: Right, but that is exactly what this category of usage in the
grammars that you don't like does. It stresses that the person or thing
is clear in the mind of the person who uses the article (i.e., there is
a definite quality to the person or thing in the miond of the writer),
but since his subject is otherwise unknown or unidentified, one can
legitimately translate it with the indefinite article in English.

JW:
Whoa Nelliphim! The general example above of Hebrew having a different
emphasis is an INTER language issue. Theoretically all Hebrew Bible speakers
would
be on the same page, so to speak. Your example in the preceding paragraph is
an INTRA language issue. The subject is definite to the Hebrew Bible speaker
and indefinite to the Hebrew Bible hearer. The default position is that what
is definite to the Hebrew Bible speaker would be definite to the Hebrew
Bible hearer. What specific examples of this do you claim (other than 7:14
of
course)?


>HH:
>If one is honest with the context in Isaiah 7, there is no real reason
>to assume that there was any particular woman that the term in question
>pointed to. There is no other woman mentioned in the context except
>Isaiah's wife, who was not a virgin and seems to have had grown sons (so
>was not a young woman either). Good writers don't use totally obscure
>references, and I believe God inspired the biblical writers.


JW:
As far as using the observation that there is no other woman mentioned in
the context, if your meaning above is that this by itself forces a conclusion
of
indefinite, that is proof-texting. If I, in return, pointed out one
consideration as proof of definite I have Faith that you would likewise be
unimpressed.


Joseph Wallack








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