Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>]

David,

Would you please explain to us what you precisely mean by "definite".

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Jun 19, 2007, at 7:40 PM, David Kummerow wrote:

> Exactly, Karl. Ancient Greek is even less sparing with its use of the
> definite article with names.
>
> There are such few examples of non-definite use that I think it is
> improper to put the category on par with the usual uses as is done in
> the grammars.
>
> In his other email Harold has to again and again say that he knows
> exactly what is happening in the context of the passage such that  
> to him
> it seems absurd that the use of the article could in no way be
> considered consistent with its usual uses. To me it's just a bit too
> presumptuous. In most examples the possibility cannot be ruled out
> ABSOLUTELY. That's the point. If this is at all granted, then it  
> follows
> that the category of "non-definite use of the definite article" should
> not be given grammatical status on the same level with the regular  
> uses.
>
> I grant that there is some conceptual overlap with the disputed  
> examples
> with generic use. However, when actual so-called non-definite examples
> are referred to they still remain different from generic use as these
> examples are in no way generic. It remains to be demonstrated that
> definite articles can be used to refer specific unknown entities.
>
> Indefinite pronouns are quite interesting. Russian, for example,  
> has an
> indefinite pronoun, koe, which is used for the expression of specific
> known referents (from Haspelmath 1997: 274-275):
>
> Nam nado pogovorit' s toboj koe o čem.
> "You and I have to talk about something."
>
> Another pronoun, -to, inter alia, refers to specific yet unknown  
> referents:
>
> Ona xočet vyjti zamuž za kogo-to iz Ameriki.
> "She wants to marry someone [specific] in America."
>
> English some- covers both range of uses.
>
> Now, regrading definite articles, once a language has  
> grammaticalised a
> definite article, further semantic bleaching and weakening can occur,
> which reduces definiteness to specificity, as in Abkhaz and Dagbani
> (Lehmann 1995: 39). Referential meaning can then be lost altogether so
> that the morpheme merely functions as a nominaliser. Now, regrading  
> BH,
> it remains to be demonstrated that such semantic bleaching of the
> definite article has indeed occurred, and that its use is encroaching
> upon indefinite referral like that given above.
>
> Haspelmath, Martin. 1997. Indefinite Pronouns. Oxford Studies in
> Typology and Linguistic Theory. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
> Lehmann, Christian. 1995. Thoughts on Grammaticalization. Lincom  
> Studies
> in Theoretical Linguistics 1. München: Lincom.
>
>
> Regards,
> David Kummerow.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Subject:
> > > Re: [b-hebrew] David's article
> > > From:
> > > "K Randolph" <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
> > > Date:
> > > Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:58:50 -0700
> > > To:
> > > b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > >
> > > To:
> > > b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > >
> > >
> > > Harold:
> > >
> > > Not only does English use the definite article more sparingly than
> > > does Biblical Hebrew, it uses it more sparingly than even other
> > > Indo-European languages: I am thinking specifically of German.
> > > Therefore it is improper to project English usage back onto Biblical
> > > Hebrew.
> > >
> > > This is a case where I think the grammarians are making a  
> > > mountain out
> > > of a molehill.
> > >
> > > Karl W. Randolph.
> > >
> > > On 6/19/07, Harold Holmyard <hholmyard3 AT earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > > Dear David,
> > > > ... Of course this is a
> > > > much smaller category of usage than the regular definite  
> > > > article, for
> > > > there are only a limited number of instances where the usage  
> > > > would be
> > > > suitable. But a limited number of occurrences of a usage does not
> > > > invalidate a usage.
> > > >
> > > > Yours,
> > > > Harold Holmyard
>
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