Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Uri Hurwitz <uhurwitz AT yahoo.com>]

> Yitzhak Sapir  wrote, inter alia:
>
>   "....the word in discussion is
> pronounced ta(at'-t'aRE:-hu: because before a guttural the schewa
>    takes the vowel quality of the guttural...."
>
>      Wrong in the Piel -- as in the above example --  where conjugations
>     of verbs whose first letter is a guttural are regular.
>
>     The only exception is in the Tsereh under the Mem of  the
>   'Bakhlam' verbal nouns.            UH  
     
     
         
     
     
     
     
      Yitshak apparently did not understand his mistake  of incorrectly   
   vocalizing the verb in question; nor did he understand that roots  
    whose P Hapoal  ( first letter of the root ) is a guttural are conjugated 
 
    as regular verbs in the Piel, and that the specific verb under discussion 
 
    occurs in this Binyan.  
     To clarify a clear point even further:  it so happens that the  first  
    verb in the very verse under discussion,  Psalm 8:6[5],   
    "WaT'H(.)aSReHu" in Piel , also has a guttoral as a first letter  
   of the root - a "H(.)et" - and is vocalized identically as the verb  
    under discussion.
            The situation is different in other Binyanim
   
            As for the mini-dissertation below, it has no relevance to the 
specific
  discussion of the Piel vocalization of the  verb  -- now two verbs -- in 
question. 
   
           Uri Hurwitz
   
   
  ..."'this correction above does not correct anything.  What you seem
to be talking about is how a schewa might change to another vowel."
     YS
    
      
           I discussed nothing of the kind, and pointed, only for the sake of 
        completenes, the change to Zsereh  from Hirik (!)   in a preposition
        preceding a verbal noun.
           It is not a good policy to attribute to others
        statements which they did not make.               UH      

   
      "The tsere under the mem in your example is long -- a tsere is always
long.  A schewa is short unless it has secondary stress.  But aside
from length, a schewa also has vowel quality, and this vowel quality,
while usually 'a' (patax) can actually at times take the quality of the
following vowel.  This is how the schewa is pronounced in Tiberian
Hebrew, not in Modern Hebrew, or in the Ashkenazi reading tradition
today, etc, but in Tiberian Hebrew of about a thousand years ago as
preserved in the Aleppo Codex, the Leningrad Codex, the Diqduqe
Teamim, Hidayat al-Qari, etc.  This happens when it is a vocal
schewa and the following letter is a guttural."     YS



    
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   Previous message: [b-hebrew] Psalm 8: 6[5] Teaterehu 


       
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>From yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com  Wed Apr 25 13:09:17 2007
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Psalm 8: 6[5] Teaterehu
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On 4/25/07, Peter Kirk wrote:
> On 24/04/2007 11:39, Yitzhak Sapir wrote:
> > ...
> > I have no idea where Isaac got Taatryihu, but the word in discussion is
> > pronounced ta(at'-t'aRE:-hu: because before a guttural the schewa
> > takes the vowel quality of the guttural.
> >
> >
> Did you in fact mean that the schewa takes the quality of the vowel
> following the guttural, or of the vowel point associated with the
> guttural? Doesn't the same rule apply also to regular consonants? It
> seems to me that Uri disagreed with you because he thought you were
> referring to some intrinsic vowel quality of the guttural itself,
> presumably the "a" vowel which is most commonly found before and after
> gutturals.

I have dealt with this more in the following:
https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew/2007-January/031206.html

To clarify:
A schewa before a guttural letter that is vocalized with patax is
pronounced like a patax.
A schewa before all other letters except yodh is pronounced as
a patax regardless of the vocalization of that letter with the
exception of qutl plurals ("qodo$im").  These have usually already
been handled by replacing the schewa with a hataf-qamats.

I personally believe that this rule of realization originally affected
all cases, not just gutturals.

Yitzhak Sapir