Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Philip <philipengmann AT yahoo.com>]

Dear All,
   
  1.  "WAYISHTAHU" in Genesis 47:31 is a reflexive verb.
   
  2.  It seems to me therefore that "YISRAEL", as well as being the subject 
of the sentence,  is also the OBJECT of the sentence. 
   
  3.  What then is "MITAH"?
   
  Best regards,
   
  Philip Engmann

       
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>From cierpke AT prodigy.net  Wed Apr 18 07:28:35 2007
Return-Path: <cierpke AT prodigy.net>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from web80204.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web80204.mail.mud.yahoo.com
        [68.142.201.109])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 386D94C010
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:28:35 -0400 
(EDT)
Received: (qmail 70994 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Apr 2007 11:28:34 -0000
X-YMail-OSG: 
b984ucYVM1m73kTg6bpFNlklFUg8CtpE7lDijkotGmK4uqkJhbFt.k6Vx4gBXuaHSLNwiwjbcMm6KL_IzpxnyGwtM1DOmW8H0zFAokHW46EsEiIIFbK3O6RidB2n7w--
Received: from [69.24.141.66] by web80204.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP;
        Wed, 18 Apr 2007 04:28:34 PDT
X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/478 YahooMailWebService/0.7.41.10
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 04:28:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Kevin W. Woodruff" <cierpke AT prodigy.net>
To: Philip <philipengmann AT yahoo.com>,
        b-hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <709135.70658.qm AT web80204.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Definition (Parsing) of "MITAH" in Genesis 47:31
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Biblical Hebrew Forum <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:28:35 -0000

Philip:

It is the noun which is in aposition to the object (ROSH) of the preposition 
`AL and stands in the prepositional phrase which modifies  "WAYISHTAHU" 

Kevin
 
Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, 
Theological Bibliography and Research
Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave. 
Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
Cierpke AT prodigy.net http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm



----- Original Message ----
From: Philip <philipengmann AT yahoo.com>
To: b-hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 2:51:56 AM
Subject: [b-hebrew] Definition (Parsing) of "MITAH" in Genesis 47:31


Dear All,
   
  1.  "WAYISHTAHU" in Genesis 47:31 is a reflexive verb.
   
  2.  It seems to me therefore that "YISRAEL", as well as being the subject 
of the sentence,  is also the OBJECT of the sentence. 
   
  3.  What then is "MITAH"?
   
  Best regards,
   
  Philip Engmann

       
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>From uhurwitz AT yahoo.com  Wed Apr 18 09:53:50 2007
Return-Path: <uhurwitz AT yahoo.com>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from web51612.mail.re2.yahoo.com (web51612.mail.re2.yahoo.com
        [68.142.224.85])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1214D4C010
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:53:50 -0400 
(EDT)
Received: (qmail 12159 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Apr 2007 13:53:49 -0000
Message-ID: <20070418135349.12157.qmail AT web51612.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
X-YMail-OSG: 
OYArqzgVM1mbQDrZS.O1YE5dH7jzabukHYHx6vLTd1Xk14zhZmI5qnxTnwG0Z.zS1qu0PRmbfSz_JZI8ZR_QOe.FCN1nsnuUfjix74osg2VeKfNWpj6sC24GzOnM..FuTy6zwkikBJ.qRC2TnvI4Vh.0mw--
Received: from [71.247.237.17] by web51612.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP;
        Wed, 18 Apr 2007 06:53:49 PDT
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 06:53:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Uri Hurwitz <uhurwitz AT yahoo.com>
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9
Subject: [b-hebrew] verb forms - Isaiah 56:6-7 was dying you shall die
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Biblical Hebrew Forum <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:53:50 -0000

Isaac Fried wrote, inter alia:
"Uri,    The relationship between Hebrew and Arabic is enigmatic

 and I am not prepared to be sucked now into this murky

 vortex. "...

   Arabic preserves many Proto-Semitic features which are

 common to all Semitic languages. Just one small example:

 Heb. ATTAH compared with Arab. ANTA. Notice the Dagesh

 forte in the Heb. Tav which compensates for the original Nun

 that had been there and is preserved in the Arabic. In Hebrew

  it was assimilated to the next letter, but marked its former

 presence by the slight emphatic pronounciation as still

 heard in Masoretes time and marked by them as a dagesh.

    To cite just one more example :the exact same process 

occurred in verbs. Notice the imperfect of NPL in Qal, where

 the Nun drops and is commpensated with a dagesh. 

 

   As for the pre-historical devlopment of Semitic languages

 or human languages in general, this is the realm of sheer

 speculation.

    Uri

 

 

  

       
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>From peter AT qaya.org  Wed Apr 18 13:53:06 2007
Return-Path: <peter AT qaya.org>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail.bcisgnet.co.uk (mail.bcisgnet.co.uk [212.100.232.232])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4E404C010
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:53:06 -0400 
(EDT)
Received: from mail.bcisgnet.co.uk (mail.bcisgnet.co.uk [212.100.232.232])
        by mail.bcisgnet.co.uk with ESMTP id l3IHr5Cj000632
        (SMTP Authenticated by TLS version=TLSv1/SSLv3
        cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) ;
        Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:53:05 +0100
Message-ID: <46265B36.3070809 AT qaya.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:53:58 +0100
From: Peter Kirk <peter AT qaya.org>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Brak <Brak AT neo.rr.com>
References: <4625596A.9020301 AT neo.rr.com>
In-Reply-To: <4625596A.9020301 AT neo.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Virus-Scanned: Scanned by ClamAV (http://www.clamav.net/
X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 212.100.232.232
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Psalm 149:7 - Leningrad Codex Varient: Bal-Umim
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Biblical Hebrew Forum <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 17:53:07 -0000

On 18/04/2007 00:34, Brak wrote:
> I have encountered ssomething interesting that I would like to share and 
> hopefully figure out.
>
> In just about every Hebrew Bible I have has at the end of Psalm 149:7 
> BAL:)UM.IYM
> but in the LC it has BAL-UM.IMYM
>
>   
You appear to mean B.AL-)UM.IYM . It is important that the aleph has not 
been dropped, and as the maqqeph (hyphen) is counted as a vowel point 
there is no difference in the consonantal text.

> ...
>
> Now here are some things I found:
>
> L:UM.IMYM appears in the following places: ...
>   

You mean L:)UM.IYM - it is important to be precise when we are looking 
at details of pointing.

> ...
>
> Now this is interesting:
> HF)UM.IYM
> Psalms 117:1 - translated as "peoples"
>
>   
According to BDB there is a word )UM.FH "tribe, people", with Arabic and 
Akkadian cognates, found at Numbers 25:15, Psalm 117:1, Gen 25:16. This 
is from the same root as )"M "mother", and the Arabic "umma" is well 
known as a word for the Muslim community as a whole. There is also a 
Hebrew word (AM or (FM "people", with separate Arabic, Syriac and 
Akkadian cognates, with a root meaning more like "include". It seems to 
me that these are separate words with separate histories, not confused 
in ancient times when aleph and ayin were distinct consonants, although 
confusing now to people who don't pronounce ayin distinctively.

There is also a word L:)OM "people", which is probably unrelated to 
either of the above.

> So from Psalms 117:1 it would appear that the root )M is "people" - just 
> like the word (M
> So could this be a case of alternate spellings? Kind of like how Isaac 
> is spelled with sometimes a TSADI, other times a SIN?
>
> So would L:UM.IMYM be translated as "to peoples",  UM.IMYM as "peoples" 
> and hense BAL-UM.IMYM as "nothing peoples".
>
> Any kind of input or ideas or guidance would be greatly appreciated.
>
>   
I guess that B.AL-)UM.IYM "not peoples", which refers to Gentiles, may 
well be a pejorative repointing of B.AL:)UM.IYM "in/among the peoples". 
Probably the latter is more original, as LXX (EN TOIS LAOIS "in the 
peoples", 43:15 and 149:7) tends to confirm.


-- 
Peter Kirk
E-mail:  peter AT qaya.org
Blog:    http://www.qaya.org/blog/
Website: http://www.qaya.org/