Biblical Hebrew Forum

[kgraham0938 AT comcast.net]

I always took the tifha marker to act like a comma instead of making 
something repeat itself twice.  I would take the "ve`et hacocaviym' as a 
third object of the verb `asah.  

--
Kelton Graham 
KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: Harold Holmyard <hholmyard AT ont.com> 

> Dear Chris and Nel wrote: 
> 
> >The last part of this verse namely: ...ET HaCoCHaViM...is accompanied by a 
> >tifha accent. It has been suggested by a pdf document that I found about 
> >accents (David Robinson and Elisabeth Levy 2002) that the above verse is 
> >in 
> >the most part mistranslated into English by saying that "God made the 
> >stars 
> >also". When it should in fact be translated to indicate that the writer 
> >was 
> >saying that "The smaller light to rule the night and the The stars to rule 
> >the night" implying that the purpose of the tifha is to read the clause: 
> >"rule the night" Twice! 
> > 
> >I am not trying to be pedantic here, but since I am learning to get to 
> >grips 
> >with these accents I am more interested in appreciating the use of the 
> >tifha 
> >at this point. 
> > 
> >Personally (before I understood the accents) I read this verse as to mean 
> >that God made the lesser light to rule the night 'Along with the stars 
> >also' 
> >to rule the night based on interpreting the 'ET' before HaCoCHaViM as 
> >'With', and for the fact that it seems to be too much of an awkward 
> >afterthought to have it placed at the end of the sentence if it were to 
> >mean 
> >simply that: "Oh yes and God made the stars also"! 
> > 
> > 
> 
> HH: The chapter is talking about creation, and before the stars do 
> anything, they have to be created. That is the thrust of the verse. You 
> could rewrite the verse: 
> 
> And God made the two great lights -- the greater light to rule the day 
> and the smaller light to rule the night -- and the stars. 
> 
> Yours, 
> Harold Holmyard 
> 
> 
> >Your comments will as always be appreciated and I will reply, 
> > 
> >Thankyou 
> > 
> >Chris Watts 
> >S. Ireland. 
> > 
> >_______________________________________________ 
> >b-hebrew mailing list 
> >b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org 
> >http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew 
> > 
> >. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> b-hebrew mailing list 
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org 
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew 
>From rosewalk AT concentric.net  Sun Sep  3 23:56:41 2006
Return-Path: <rosewalk AT concentric.net>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from valiant.cnc.net (valiant.cnc.net [207.155.252.68])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA2E4C00B
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Sun,  3 Sep 2006 23:56:41 -0400 
(EDT)
Received: from [66.236.160.36] (ts003d0001.nyc-ny.xod.concentric.net
        [66.236.160.1])
        by valiant.cnc.net (ConcentricHost(2.54) Relay) with ESMTP id
        6F07E140909
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Sun,  3 Sep 2006 23:56:39 -0400 
(EDT)
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: rosewalk AT rosewalk.cnc.net@pop3.rosewalk.cnc.net
Message-Id: <v04210103c1214e15da30@[66.236.160.36]>
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 22:55:45 -0500
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
From: Shoshanna Walker <rosewalk AT concentric.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] MICHAEL  Re:  Sanhedrin
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8
Precedence: list
List-Id: Biblical Hebrew Forum <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 03:56:41 -0000

But the text doesn't confirm your position either - except re 
establishing lesser courts.

Balaam is one of the 7 non-Jewish prophets, I doubt they would go to 
the Sanhedrin.  The 7 were  Balaam, Be'Or (his father), Job, Eliphaz, 
Bildad, Tzofar, Elihu b. Berachel.

I don't know the answer to your question, which came first - what I 
learned is that a prophet had to prophecy correctly in every detail 3 
times in order to be "certified".  Also, even if a prophet had been 
certified, and then prophecied incorrectly, his status was removed.

The status of a prophet is discussed in the Talmud in Tractate Sanhedrin.

We would maybe have to examine the life of each prophet to see where 
he prophecied.  They are referenced all over Scripture, in the Torah, 
in Prophets, in Psalms, in Kings, in Daniel, Ezra, Chronicles, Judges 
- that literature plus the Mishna and Talmud is all too vast for me 
to look for an answer to your question.

Also, the Prophets of the Pre-Egyptian era (Adam, Noah, Shem, Ever, 
Abraham, Yitzchak, Yaakov), as well as the prophets in Egypt, (Moshe, 
Aharon and 5 grandsons of Judah), couldn't have been verified by a 
Sanhedrin, as it was set up later.  Maybe the idea was, that after 
Moshe, the people would need some way of knowing who was for real, 
remember sometimes they prophecied events that were to occur in later 
generations, how would we know if we should take them seriously or 
not?

The era of prophecy was considered to be 2448 - 3448.  During those 
years over a million Jews attained the high level of prophetic 
revelation, but only those prophecies which were of significance to 
later generations were transcribed.  The names of the many other 
prophets were not included among the 48 primary Prophets and 7 
Prophetesses of Israel.

Your last point:  The oral tradition was written down in great 
historical detail, in the Talmud and elsewhere, but it wasn't studied 
or learned by most non-Jews, so that is why you wouldn't be able to 
compare it with opposing traditions.

Shoshanna




>
I can understand how your assumptions require that interpretation.
However, I cannot say that
either the text or context do much to confirm it.

> Re your question would the Sanhedrin have made decisions on those
> prophets who were living in other nations?  What prophets did not
> BEGIN their ministries IN Israel?
Aside from Abraham, Aaron, and Miriam, we could mention Balaam.
But I specifically mentioned the divided kingdom. Do you believe
that the prophets of Israel started their ministries in Judah
and gained approval from the Sanhedrin before preaching in Israel? Or
did the
Sanhedrin confirm their prophetic ministries after the fact?


> The record of how the tradition was handed down, is in the beginning
> of Pirkei Avot.
>
Unless you tell me otherwise, I will assume that you mean by this that
the authenticity of the
oral tradition is a matter of faith not verifiable in any objective
manner. That's totally acceptable.
But it does make it difficult for those who do not share your faith to
impartially compare those traditions with
opposing traditions.
Sincerely,
Michael Abernathy


-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/436 - Release Date: 9/1/2006

_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew