Biblical Hebrew Forum

[kgraham0938 AT comcast.net]

@Karl:
Hey Karl, I think  I have found some, tell me what you think.
KIY can introduce a rhetorical question without the H particle.  If you have 
H.A.L.O.T. it list some. p 471
1 Sam 24:19 V:KIY-YIM:C' 'IY$ ET-'OY:BW W:$LLXW B:DEDEK
and if a man finds his adversary, does he send him in the way that is good?
HALOT also list Isaiah 36:19 under this catagory.  So it sees the KIY 
introducing a question as well.

--
Kelton Graham 
KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net
>From kwrandolph AT email.com  Thu Nov 17 17:30:56 2005
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel 6:27 (time indefinite) II
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Peter:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Kirk" <peter AT qaya.org>
>=20
> On 17/11/2005 17:14, Karl Randolph wrote:
>=20
> > Peter:
> >
> > This is where you disagree with not only Rolf, but many other=20
> > people on this list.
> >
> > The root meaning of (WLM is from unknownness, i.e. a period of=20
> > time whose length is not known. "Eternity" is a subset of that=20
> > understanding.
> >
> This is the etymological fallacy,

No way! (WLM is used a few hundred times in Tanakh,=20
many times for events that have a duration that is not=20
specified, many times it is unknown. For past to past=20
continuing, probably the best translation would be "from=20
old" without specifying the starting date. Many of the=20
events are for an unspecified, unknown to the listener,=20
time in the future. "Eternal" is a subset of this concept,=20
but not always correct for each context, in fact it is=20
often incorrect.

> ...     compounded by being based on a=20
> rather dubious etymology. There are at least two roots (LM in=20
> Hebrew, as is clear from the Arabic cognates.

Let's not get into this again, as I have already and totally=20
rejected this as being pure speculation based on dubious=20
presuppositions without any historical documentation.

In other words, BDB don't impress me.

> ...=20=20=20=20=20
>=20
> > If you take the New Testament as a continuation of Tanakh with=20
> > the same God causing people to write his expressions using even=20
> > the exact words God wanted, as I and others on this list do, then=20
> > many of the statutes and laws that are L(WLM are only for a=20
> > finite period of time. However, that finite period of time was=20
> > unknown to the listeners and the end thereof was kept from them.
> >
> >
>=20
> This is a misinterpretation of the New Testament, for Jesus said "I=20
> tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the=20
> smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means=20
> disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." (Matthew=20
> 5:18, NIV) Yes, I accept that le`olam may mean only until the final=20
> consummation of all things, but, even as a Christian, not that it=20
> was for a period which terminated with the coming of Jesus Christ.

Um, this is getting off list, or at least I'm skating on thin ice,=20
here trying to limit it to how to interpret (WLM, many=20
Christians understand it that the law was totally fulfilled=20
when Jesus was nailed to the cross, died and was=20
resurrected. Thus Matthew 5:18 was fulfilled.

Then we find much in the New Testament where it is=20
supposed the understanding that when Jeremiah 31:31=20
says that God will make a new covenant, that the old one=20
in Torah is no longer in force, neither are all the laws and=20
commands that were L(WLM. Furthermore that Jesus is=20
the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:15-19, the one who=20
mediated a new covenant (the "Ten Commandments"=20
were specifically called a BRYT "covenant" in Torah) with=20
his followers.

Therefore, and admittedly this is at least partially a=20
theological answer, the period of "forever" if you want to=20
insist it was called that for all the laws in Torah ended two=20
millennia ago. Even your interpretation has that period=20
ending at the return of Jesus, still not eternity.=20
Consequently (WLM cannot have a core meaning of=20
"eternity" or "forever" if understood from a New Testament=20
perspective.
>=20
> -- Peter Kirk
> peter AT qaya.org (personal)
> peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
> http://www.qaya.org/

Even from an Old Testament perspective, (WLM has an=20
unspecified end, such as the person who is a slave for the=20
rest of his life. That's not eternity. Likewise a people from=20
the past M(WLM are not from eternity past, but had an=20
unspecified beginning.

A meaning that has so many exceptions cannot be a core=20
meaning.

But my understanding of an unknown extent of time=20
encompasses also eternity, hence this is the core=20
meaning. That this fits in with the (LM root meaning of=20
being unknown is a plus, but its connection with time=20
shows that it is not a direct derivative of the root.

Karl W. Randolph.


--=20
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