Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Veiros <veiros AT yahoo.com>]

Yahoo newsgroup "Messianic_Apologetic · Is Yeshua the
Messiah of Tanach ?" referred me to your group in
regards to a post I made there recently. I search for
a diligent answer to it. 

*{BTW. At first I went to:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bhebrew/
althought b-hebrew gateway link wasn't working
Then I found a better link:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
and here I am.}


Here is the thead from Messianic_Apologetic:
------------------------
Mon Nov 7, 2005  9:05 am
veiros wrote:

After doing a comparison between the Tanachs vailable
online found divers differences, and would apreciate
if somebody could help shed some light upon.. or
direct this to whom diligently would be able.
Thanks.
The Tanachs I have used are the Jewish Koren edition,
Aleppo, BHS,
and Jacob Ben Chayim.

To start, here are two major differences:

I.) BHS, Chayim, include Joshua 21:36-37 while Aleppo
and Koren omit it. In a standard Jewish Tanach with
Hebrew side by
side with English, there is a footnote that says:
Quote:
Joshua Chapter 21 verse 36-37
Some versions insert this verse after verse 35:
And out of the tribe of Re'uven, Bezer, and it's
pasture lands, and
Yahza and its pasture lands, Qedemot and its pasture
lands, and
Mefa'at and its pasture lands, four cities.

II.) BHS, Jewish Koren, (and heard that the ancient
manuscript Hagiographa, Naples 1486--87) render Psalm
68:27 (Ps.
68:26 in most translations) has YHWH, while Aleppo
codex, Chayim
(and heard that many other masoretic manuscripts) have
Adonai.

When comparing further, found these consonant
differences:
+ Deut. 23:2 BHS, Aleppo have 4th word last letter
as Aleph, while Koren, Chayim have letter He.
+ 2Kgs 12:22 BHS have first word 5th letter Bet
while Aleppo, Koren, Chayim have Kaf.
+ Isaiah 27:2 BHS have 4th word last letter as Dalet
while Aleppo, Koren, Chayim have Resh.
+ Ezek. 17:6 BHS have 4th word second letter as Bet
while Aleppo, Koren, Chayim have Kaf.
+ Job 36:12 BHS have 7th word first letter as Bet
while Aleppo, Koren, Chayim have Kaf.
+ Esther 2:6 BHS have 14th word with letter Aleph,
while Aleppo, Koren, Chayim lack.

Also I noticed the book of Daniel compared to
BHS/Koren/Chayim
has many words that end in letter Aleph instead of He.
For ensample: Dan 2:19, 3:5, 4:7, 5:19, 6:6, 7:24,
10:1

Does any of this change the meaning?
And if yes, Why? How? And which is correct?

Of course the truth of the message as a whole is still
perfectly
maintained, although sometimes a little detail could
shed some light
on something; that perhaps even was kept in store for
today.

I have a complete list of consonant differences
between the
Aleppo/BHS/Chayim that I could send upon request.

There's also many vowel and accent differences between
BHS, Aleppo, and Chayim, although I have not noted
those
since I have read somewhere the reason is that the
spelling in the
Hebrew Bible did not become uniformized until the
sixteenth century
with the advent of a printed version that could
provide an identical
standard text available at diverse geographical
locations.
The other differences between the Hebrew texts that I
noted mostly
involve the yod and vav. A Yod, or sometimes Vav are
on some texts
and not in others, and sometimes they are even
interchanged. A
Jewish friend said that:
Quote:
"1.) Some times vav's in Hebrew manuscript are in the
niqudot or are
Vav's in the Holy texts.
2.) Yod's or Vav's in most cases won't change the
meaning of the
word cause in Hebrew in 90% of the cases they are used
only as
vowels. "

Examples:
Gen. 4:13, 7:11, 8:20, 9:29
Exo. 25:31, 28:26
Num. 1:17, 10:10, 22:5

Also upon request I would be glad to send you a
complete Tanach list of additional / lacking /
interchanged Vau or Yod difference between the texts.
Also have a list of word spacing and even maquef
differences.
For now any helpful information in regards to these
differences is greatly appreciated. Thanks. -MV

>
--------------------------------------------------------------
> (moderator note)
> 
> Thanks Verio. There are probably a few posters here
(albeit probably only a few) who can work closely with
this information. We shall see if any jump in.
> 
> Are you also posting on b-hebrew ? My friends in
WhichVersion are also interested in such differences,
and it might be possible to get Thomas Strouse and
John Hinton and maybe others involved. 
> 
> It definitely seems that in many cases the degree of
version differences is overstated. Have you seen the
list of about seven significant differences that are
given, as in a recent b-hebrew forum list ? Of course
we are talking here word/phrase differences, not
things like the Tetragrammaton vowels :-) If I
remember correctly, the seven was pushed up a bit on
further analysis.
> 
> btw, on Psalm 22:16 (in the Christian version
numbering) have you heard of any editions of Ben Hayim
that have the verbal reading ? Also did you know that
there is a reference (from a Catholic Encyclopedia
quoting Drosius (sp?) that he was under some pressure,
and made a special comment, on that verse ? Generally
it is said that most of the Masoretic Texts have the
"lion" reading with only a couple of manuscripts
having the verbal (pierced/dug) reading. Is this
something you have studied ?
>

------------------------------

November 8, 2005 veiros reply:

All are at liberty to quote the post and mention
"veiros @ yahoo.com" as contact, to involve people
that can help shed some light upon this. After reading
your reply, I went to b-hebrew gateway and seems not
to be working. I have not seen the seven significant
differences they mention, although I also don't know
which versions they used. I have noted the differences
from the standard online Tanachs found online.

It is true that in many cases the degree of version
differences is overstated. After comparing for
ensample Aleppo and Jewish Koren found that from the
Torah it incredibly retains it's exact meaning. Also
BHS, Chayim, and other Masoretic editions are also
credible since they agree with eachother as a whole.
And as stated before, the only two major word/phrase
differences between Jewish Koren, Aleppo, BHS, Chayim
and other Masoretic editions is Joshua 21:36-37, and
Ps. 68:27, and since these editions have withstood the
test of time, I would even dare to say that it may of
been divinely allowed to express some point. The same
can also be found in the New Testament Greek
manuscripts (ex. Erasmus 3rd edition) that Luke 17:36
is missing.
Lu 17:36 Two in the field, the one shall be received,
and the other forsaken.

I had not looked into Psalm 22, although it is an
interesting study. In the Hebrew Tanachs
BHS/ALeppo/Koren/Chayim after comparison, Ps. 22:17 
seems to be rendered the same.

We shall know the resources according to their fruits.
 

Here is Psalm 22 from Mathews Bible 1530s translation
in modern spelling:

Ps 22:1 ((To the Chanter upon Aieleth of the dawning,
a Psalm of David.)) My God, my God: why hast thou
forsaken me? the words of my complaint are far from my
health.
Ps 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou
hearest not: and in the night season also I take no
rest.
Ps 22:3 Yet dwellest thou in the sanctuary, O thou
worship of Israel.
Ps 22:4 Our fathers hoped in thee, they trusted in
thee, and thou didst deliver them.
Ps 22:5 They called upon thee, and were helped: they
put their trust in thee, and were not confounded.
Ps 22:6 But as for me, I am a worm and no man: a very
scorn of men and the outcast of the people.
Ps 22:7 All they that see me, laugh me to scorn: they
shoot out their lips, and shake their heads.
Ps 22:8 He trusted in God, let him deliver him: let
him help him, if he will have him.
Ps 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of my
mother's womb: thou wast my hope, when I hanged yet
upon my mother's breasts.
Ps 22:10 I have been left unto thee ever since I was
born, thou art my God, even from my mother's womb.
Ps 22:11 O go not far from me then, for trouble is
hard at hand, and here is none to help me.
Ps 22:12 Great bulls are come about me, fat oxen close
me in on every side.
Ps 22:13 They gape upon me with their mouths, as it
were a rampaging and roaring lion.
Ps 22:14 I am poured out like water, all my bones are
out of joint: my heart in the middest of my body is
even like melting wax.
Ps 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and
my tongue cleaveth to my gums, and thou hast brought
me into the dust of death.
Ps 22:16 For dogs are come about me, the counsel of
the wicked hath laid siege against me.
Ps 22:17 They pierced my hands and my feet, I might
have told all my bones: as for them, they stood
staring and looking upon me.
Ps 22:18 They have parted my garments among them, and
cast lots upon my vesture.
Ps 22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: thou art
my succour, haste thee to help me.
Ps 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword, my dearling
from the power of the dog.
Ps 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth, and hear me
from among the horns of the unicorns.
Ps 22:22 So will I declare thy name unto my brethren,
in the middest of the congregation will I praise thee.
Ps 22:23 O praise the LORD ye that fear him: Magnify
him all ye seed of Jacob, and let all the seed of
Israel fear him.
Ps 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the
miserable estate of the poor: he hath not hid his face
from me, but when I called unto him, he heard me.
Ps 22:25 I will praise thee in the great congregation,
and perform my vows in the sight of all them that fear
thee.
Ps 22:26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied: they
that seek after the LORD shall praise him: our heart
shall live for ever.
Ps 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember
themselves, and be turned unto the LORD: and all the
generations of the Heathen shall worship before him.
Ps 22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD's, and he shall
be the governour of the Heathen.
Ps 22:29 All such as be fat upon earth, shall eat also
and worship. All they that lie in the dust, and live
so hardly, shall fall down before him.
Ps 22:30 The seed shall serve him, and preach of the
Lord {LORDE} forever.
Ps 22:31 They shall come, and declare his
righteousness: unto a people that shall be born, whom
the Lord {LORDE} hath made.

----------------------------

----------------------------------------

Tue Nov 8, 2005  6:06 am 
truthseeker3712 wrote:

>nice post.That is why I like this forum. 
>Dave Donnely has also been
>putting up some good stuff. 
>Definately take this over to b-Hebrew as well.


        
                
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