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  • From: kgraham0938 AT comcast.net
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] accent mark question Ps 45:7 and Dagesh in Isaiah 8:11
  • Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:29:47 +0000

@yitzhak:

thanks for your answer, I totally forgot about the dehi and the fact that
Psalms uses different accent markings, I have not been in the Psalms in a
long time. Let me ask you something, giving the munah, one cannot translate
this as "God, is your throne for ever and ever."

In otherwords the subject/predicate can't flip flop.

And which do you think is stronger translation?

Your throne, O God...
vs
Your throne is God...

In regards to Isaiah 8:11, if this is a piel this would mean that bible works
is in error, for they mark this as a qal imperfect 3 masculine singular. I
usually don't go against bible works, but in this case I can't see how they
got there morphology.

--
Kelton Graham
KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net

-------------- Original message --------------

> On 10/31/05, Kelton Graham wrote:
> > My question is two fold in Psalm 45:7 K:S:`A:KA
> > E:LOHIYM the tipha under the alef of ' E:LOHIYM does
> > that represent a pause?
> >
> > So is it, "your throne, O God is forever and ever?"
> >
> > "Or can one get away with Your throne is God, forever and
> > ever?"
>
> If the Massoretes got away with it, what prevents you from
> getting away with it?
>
> In the book of Psalms a different system of division is at work.
> The cantillation mark you are looking at is a D:xi (dehi) and it is
> a Mishneh (ie, 3rd level of division, after a Qeisar and a Melekh).
> A +ipxah is a Melekh and is found under the stressed syllable of
> books other than Psalms, Job, and Proverbs, while a D:xi is found
> always before the start of the word in the Psalms/Job/Proverbs
> system regardless of stress. A cantillation mark called a +irxFh
> (tirha) is shaped exactly the same way but is a conjunctive and
> found under the stressed syllable. Anyway, the munah is still
> conjunctive and the etnahta is still the greatest pause so this
> verse is quite simple: The munach connects "(wlm" to "w(d" and
> "ks)k" to ")lhym", and the dehi separates the ")lhm" from the
> portion following it, until the etnahta.
>
> [ Your throne God ] [ forever ]
>
> Based on the context where God speaks his blessing to his
> chosen king, such as in the next verse where "thus has God
> anointed you." So it probably means:
>
> Your throne is God, eternal.
>
> That is: You are eternally supported by God.
>
> I note JPS translates: Thy throne given of God is for
> ever and ever, so they add "given of" in the translation
> so that the implication is clearer.
>
> > Second question is YISS:R"NIY in Isaiah 8:11, why is
> > there a dagesh in the samech?
>
> Seems to me because it is a Piel.
>
> > And if this thing is imperfect why isn't there a dagesh in
> > the yod?
>
> Seems to me the Massoretic signs imply it is not a Vav
> conversive. It is a vav conjunctive only. So it says "God
> said such to me with a strong hand and repeatedly
> admonishes/pains me not to go the way of this people,
> saying."
>
> Here I read the imperfect as an ongoing repeated action.
>
> According to the Hebrew Univ Bible/Isaiah:
> Isaiah A has "wyhy kxzqt yd ysyrnw"
> Miqraot Gdolot, Kennicott 150, and multiple manuscripts
> in Kennicott/de Rossi/Ginsburg have "bxzqt"
> Codex Karlsruhe 3 ("Reuchlinianus"), dated 1105, has
> "wiysir"yniy" which appears to match Aquilas and
> Theodotion from my limited understanding of the Greek
> apparatus. Kennicott 30 has just "ysrny" before
> correction.
>
> I don't know Greek so I won't try to analyze the LXX
> comments beyond this but they seem apparently to point
> to an etymology of "swr."
>
> Yitzhak Sapir
> _______________________________________________
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> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
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>From kgraham0938 AT comcast.net Mon Oct 31 15:31:58 2005
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Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:31:39 +0000
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] accent mark question Ps 45:7 and Dagesh in Isaiah
8:11
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@Kirk:

Thanks Kirk for your answer, I was just looking for an explanation of how the
dehi was functioning, I totally forgot that Psalms has different accent marks.

I was trying to see if "Your throne, O God (vocative) is a better translation
than "Your throne is God."

--
Kelton Graham
KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net

-------------- Original message --------------

> Kelton:
>
> The answer to both is context.
>
> The context of Psalms is that there is only one God,
> therefore a throne cannot be a god.
>
> As for the Isaiah verse, I will attempt no answer as to why
> the Masoretes pointed it the way they did, however the
> context indicates that this is a Hiphil from the verb SWR.
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: kgraham0938 AT comcast.net
> >
> > My question is two fold in Psalm 45:7 K:S:`A:KA E:LOHIYM
> >
> > the tipha under the alef of ' E:LOHIYM does that represent a pause?
> >
> > So is it, "your throne, O God is forever and ever?"
> >
> > "Or can one get away with Your throne is God, forever and ever?"
> >
> > Second question is YISS:R"NIY in Isaiah 8:11, why is there a dagesh
> > in the samech? And if this thing is imperfect why isn't there a
> > dagesh in the yod? Looks to me like the yod there is part of the
> > root, not part of a vav conversive. Looks like a Piel but I guess
> > it is not.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Kelton Graham
> > KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net
>
> --
> ___________________________________________________
> Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.mail.com/
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>From yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com Mon Oct 31 15:50:29 2005
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Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:50:27 +0000
From: Yitzhak Sapir <yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] accent mark question Ps 45:7 and Dagesh in Isaiah
8:11
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On 10/31/05, Kelton Graham wrote:
> @yitzhak:
>
> Let me ask you something, giving the munah, one cannot translate
> this as "God, is your throne for ever and ever."
>
> In otherwords the subject/predicate can't flip flop.

The Massoretic marks can't provide that. There are only two possibilities
from the Massoretic marks: either "ksak )lhm" is a unified block or it is
divided into two. If it was divided into two, the verse would read:

[ Your throne ] { [ God ] [ eternal ] }

Translated meaning, "Your throne, God is eternal"? I am not sure what
that means. I guess this means that the division of this verse portion is
rather straightforward.

> And which do you think is stronger translation?
>
> Your throne, O God...
> vs
> Your throne is God...

Like I said, I understand that vs 3 reads "God blesses you forever" and
starting with vs 4 reads the blessing to his king. So God can't be speakin=
g
to Himself. God is speaking to His king, blessing him, saying He is the
foundation for his throne/reign.

> In regards to Isaiah 8:11, if this is a piel this would mean that bible w=
orks
> is in error, for they mark this as a qal imperfect 3 masculine singular. =
I
> usually don't go against bible works, but in this case I can't see how th=
ey
> got there morphology.

Perhaps by using a variant that I listed. None of the variants that I
pointed out
had a dagesh in the Samekh. Do they claim to follow the Ben Asher Codex?
The dagesh is clear at http://www.aleppocodex.org/aleppocodex.html

Yitzhak Sapir




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