Biblical Hebrew Forum

[kgraham0938 AT comcast.net]

@yitzhak:

thanks for your answer, I totally forgot about the dehi and the fact that 
Psalms uses different accent markings, I have not been in the Psalms in a 
long time.  Let me ask you something, giving the munah, one cannot translate 
this as "God, is your throne for ever and ever."

In otherwords the subject/predicate can't flip flop.  

And which do you think is stronger translation?

Your throne, O God...
vs
Your throne is God...

In regards to Isaiah 8:11, if this is a piel this would mean that bible works 
is in error, for they mark this as a qal imperfect 3 masculine singular.  I 
usually don't go against bible works, but in this case I can't see how they 
got there morphology.

--
Kelton Graham 
KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> On 10/31/05, Kelton Graham wrote: 
> > My question is two fold in Psalm 45:7 K:S:`A:KA 
> > E:LOHIYM the tipha under the alef of ' E:LOHIYM does 
> > that represent a pause? 
> > 
> > So is it, "your throne, O God is forever and ever?" 
> > 
> > "Or can one get away with Your throne is God, forever and 
> > ever?" 
> 
> If the Massoretes got away with it, what prevents you from 
> getting away with it? 
> 
> In the book of Psalms a different system of division is at work. 
> The cantillation mark you are looking at is a D:xi (dehi) and it is 
> a Mishneh (ie, 3rd level of division, after a Qeisar and a Melekh). 
> A +ipxah is a Melekh and is found under the stressed syllable of 
> books other than Psalms, Job, and Proverbs, while a D:xi is found 
> always before the start of the word in the Psalms/Job/Proverbs 
> system regardless of stress. A cantillation mark called a +irxFh 
> (tirha) is shaped exactly the same way but is a conjunctive and 
> found under the stressed syllable. Anyway, the munah is still 
> conjunctive and the etnahta is still the greatest pause so this 
> verse is quite simple: The munach connects "(wlm" to "w(d" and 
> "ks)k" to ")lhym", and the dehi separates the ")lhm" from the 
> portion following it, until the etnahta. 
> 
> [ Your throne God ] [ forever ] 
> 
> Based on the context where God speaks his blessing to his 
> chosen king, such as in the next verse where "thus has God 
> anointed you." So it probably means: 
> 
> Your throne is God, eternal. 
> 
> That is: You are eternally supported by God. 
> 
> I note JPS translates: Thy throne given of God is for 
> ever and ever, so they add "given of" in the translation 
> so that the implication is clearer. 
> 
> > Second question is YISS:R"NIY in Isaiah 8:11, why is 
> > there a dagesh in the samech? 
> 
> Seems to me because it is a Piel. 
> 
> > And if this thing is imperfect why isn't there a dagesh in 
> > the yod? 
> 
> Seems to me the Massoretic signs imply it is not a Vav 
> conversive. It is a vav conjunctive only. So it says "God 
> said such to me with a strong hand and repeatedly 
> admonishes/pains me not to go the way of this people, 
> saying." 
> 
> Here I read the imperfect as an ongoing repeated action. 
> 
> According to the Hebrew Univ Bible/Isaiah: 
> Isaiah A has "wyhy kxzqt yd ysyrnw" 
> Miqraot Gdolot, Kennicott 150, and multiple manuscripts 
> in Kennicott/de Rossi/Ginsburg have "bxzqt" 
> Codex Karlsruhe 3 ("Reuchlinianus"), dated 1105, has 
> "wiysir"yniy" which appears to match Aquilas and 
> Theodotion from my limited understanding of the Greek 
> apparatus. Kennicott 30 has just "ysrny" before 
> correction. 
> 
> I don't know Greek so I won't try to analyze the LXX 
> comments beyond this but they seem apparently to point 
> to an etymology of "swr." 
> 
> Yitzhak Sapir 
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>From kgraham0938 AT comcast.net  Mon Oct 31 15:31:58 2005
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] accent mark question Ps 45:7 and Dagesh in Isaiah
        8:11
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@Kirk:

Thanks Kirk for your answer, I was just looking for an explanation of how the 
dehi was functioning, I totally forgot that Psalms has different accent marks.

I was trying to see if "Your throne, O God (vocative) is a better translation 
than "Your throne is God."

--
Kelton Graham 
KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> Kelton: 
> 
> The answer to both is context. 
> 
> The context of Psalms is that there is only one God, 
> therefore a throne cannot be a god. 
> 
> As for the Isaiah verse, I will attempt no answer as to why 
> the Masoretes pointed it the way they did, however the 
> context indicates that this is a Hiphil from the verb SWR. 
> 
> Karl W. Randolph. 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: kgraham0938 AT comcast.net 
> > 
> > My question is two fold in Psalm 45:7 K:S:`A:KA E:LOHIYM 
> > 
> > the tipha under the alef of ' E:LOHIYM does that represent a pause? 
> > 
> > So is it, "your throne, O God is forever and ever?" 
> > 
> > "Or can one get away with Your throne is God, forever and ever?" 
> > 
> > Second question is YISS:R"NIY in Isaiah 8:11, why is there a dagesh 
> > in the samech? And if this thing is imperfect why isn't there a 
> > dagesh in the yod? Looks to me like the yod there is part of the 
> > root, not part of a vav conversive. Looks like a Piel but I guess 
> > it is not. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Kelton Graham 
> > KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net 
> 
> -- 
> ___________________________________________________ 
> Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.mail.com/ 
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>From yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com  Mon Oct 31 15:50:29 2005
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Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:50:27 +0000
From: Yitzhak Sapir <yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] accent mark question Ps 45:7 and Dagesh in Isaiah
        8:11
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On 10/31/05, Kelton Graham wrote:
> @yitzhak:
>
> Let me ask you something, giving the munah, one cannot translate
> this as "God, is your throne for ever and ever."
>
> In otherwords the subject/predicate can't flip flop.

The Massoretic marks can't provide that.  There are only two possibilities
from the Massoretic marks: either "ksak )lhm" is a unified block or it is
divided into two.  If it was divided into two, the verse would read:

[ Your throne ] { [ God ] [ eternal ] }

Translated meaning, "Your throne, God is eternal"?  I am not sure what
that means.  I guess this means that the division of this verse portion is
rather straightforward.

> And which do you think is stronger translation?
>
> Your throne, O God...
> vs
> Your throne is God...

Like I said, I understand that vs 3 reads "God blesses you forever" and
starting with vs 4 reads the blessing to his king.  So God can't be speakin=
g
to Himself.  God is speaking to His king, blessing him, saying He is the
foundation for his throne/reign.

> In regards to Isaiah 8:11, if this is a piel this would mean that bible w=
orks
> is in error, for they mark this as a qal imperfect 3 masculine singular. =
 I
> usually don't go against bible works, but in this case I can't see how th=
ey
> got there morphology.

Perhaps by using a variant that I listed.  None of the variants that I
pointed out
had a dagesh in the Samekh.  Do they claim to follow the Ben Asher Codex?
The dagesh is clear at http://www.aleppocodex.org/aleppocodex.html

Yitzhak Sapir