Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

Hi there,

my 'linguistic' process is an instinctual one. It follows no strict rules or 
formalised methods which 
can be found summarised in a scholarly work.
It basically consists of listening (or reading in the case of the tanakh). 
The assumption is that
there are no such thing as 'grammatical rules' but only 'usual behaviours & 
patterns'. Under this 
philosophy 'exceptions' are not to be considered 'bad grammar' but the 
difference between having 
an accademic knowledge of the language and really understanding the languages 
living spirit. Thus 
the true meaning of any word, suffic, prefix or particle is more governed by 
its contextual usage
,while they can often have a primary meaning that is considered to be its 
normal meaning.

e.g.
The particle 'wa' has the basic meaning of 'and' and when affixed to 
wayyiqtols has the effect of 
indicating a sequence. But to say that 'wa' always means 'and' and a 
'wayyiqtol' always indicates 
sequence is contrary both to the data and to mylinguistic instincts. The data 
and my instincts 
show that 'wa' is often better translated as 'but/when/while' depending on 
the context. In the 
same way that data also shows that wayyiqtols do not always indicate sequence.
Was sequence normal in spoken hebrew with wayyiqtols? We don't know! But we 
can say with certainty
that the corpus of the hebrew bible shows that this is the major usage. But 
what it is imperative 
to understand from an 'instictually linguistic' point of view is that it is 
the *context* and not 
the form which dictates this.

Similar arguments can be given with aspect etc.  of verbs but I think you get 
the point:

1) Forms can have a seemingly primary usage
2) The exceptions to the primary usage are what refine your understanding
3) It is the context and not the form that dictate the meaning 

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of George Athas
Sent: Thu 8/18/2005 7:57 AM
To: b-hebrew
Subject: [b-hebrew] Hebrew Verbs Request (from Rodney Duke)
 
The following post is sent on behalf of Rodney Duke (dukerk AT appstate.edu).

=======================================================

Dear Colleagues, 

The list has gone through another series of discussions on the Hebrew verbal 
system.  I have generally followed these discussions, and have even saved 
some that go back to 1999.  However, it is difficult for me to put together a 
synthesis of each one of the positions taken, when the discussion threads get 
so interwoven by interaction with various respondents.  

I would like to make the following request of each of the linguists, 
including self-educated linguists (no one excluded):  
Would you please present a very compact synthesis of your current 
understanding of (a) the Hebrew verbal system (tense? aspect? modal nuance?) 
and (b) the function of waw, particularly in wayyiqtol.  I certainly would 
benefit from a side-by-side comparison of your responses, if you would be so 
willing.  Also, I would like to request a (c) element: your strongest 
supportive argument.  For instance, I would be interested in the traditional 
"tense advocates" and 4-verb form advocates to state what they think is the 
strongest, still-standing argument for short and long prefixed verbs.  I am 
not asking that you go into lengthy explanations or defend your positions 
against all other variants.  Just state in briefly why you are convinced.  No 
dialogue.

I do not believe that DeCaen, Hatav, Niccacci, Buth, and some others have 
been involved in recent discussions.  If someone could represent their 
positions or explain how your current synthesis differs from one of theirs, 
that would be even more helpful.  I am not trying to get another convoluted 
thread going, just a collection of summary statements to compare.  Thanks in 
advance for anyone who is willing to take the time and effort to respond!

Blessings,
Rodney Duke
Professor of Phil. & Rel.
Appalachian State University
Boone, NC 28607 

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I agree that the terms 'forth-teller' and 'fore-teller' represent bad English 
but they were useful to get the discussion 
going.
I liked the observation that Abraham was acting as an intercessor between Yah 
and men at this time and my instincts tell 
me that this was not insignificant.
I also liked the observation that the more modern usage of the name 'prophet' 
corresponds to the older name 'seer' indicating
that the older usage of 'prophet' meant something a little different.

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>From dwashbur AT nyx.net  Thu Aug 18 12:44:07 2005
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Basic observations on WAYYIQTOL
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On Thursday 18 August 2005 10:11, Peter Kirk wrote:
> On 18/08/2005 16:17, Dave Washburn wrote:
> >On Tuesday 16 August 2005 17:27, Peter Kirk wrote:
> >> ...
> >>
> >>Thanks for this. I tend to agree with Rubinstein, at least to a first
> >>approximation. But in 18:1 Abraham sitting is not QATAL but a participle
> >>and so stative. However, 18:7 is a QATAL followed by a participle and
> >>these are presumably sequential.
> >
> >Pardon my jumping in here, but I don't see a participle in that verse?
>
> Sorry, I was obviously running myself here, I means a QATAL followed by
> a WAYYIQTOL which are presumably sequential. Thank you for pointing out
> my error.

No problem.  I just wanted to be sure I wasn't still half asleep :-)

--
Dave Washburn
http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
"Well, if I'd wanted a safe life, I guess I wouldn't have
married a man who studies rocks." - Betty Armstrong (Fay Masterson)