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- From: Stephen <stephen4yeshua AT yahoo.com>
- To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
- Subject: [b-hebrew] Hebrew calender?
- Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:19:03 -0700 (PDT)
I am curious about the original Hebrew calender.
The gregorian calender, used by most western nations today, was established
by pope gregory VII in 1582. It is a solar calender.
In Jewish calender the months are determined by the moon, and year by the
sun, as far as I can tell?
In think there are 12 months with 29 or 30 days, in the Jewish calender?
Over the years it is clear the names of the months and the process of
establishing the calender has changed, following babylonian exile in 586 to
516 BC, and now the Jewish calender refelcts babylonian names, as these names
still appear in the Jewish calender.
I am curious if first, I am off base on these predicates, and second, if I am
not off, then what are the original Hebrew Jewish names for the calender?
I know today the new moon is called Rosh Hodesh (head of months) and is
marked in the synagogue with prayers, Torah readings, and special greetings.
I know in Exodus Elohiym established the order of months. This, as I believe,
was the first calender used to determine the holy days.
Could (Nisan) be the original Hebrew name of the first month and marks the
redemption of Yisrael from Egypt?
By the time of Y'shua, there was a second calender used for civil affairs.
This calender began with the month Tishri. The first Tishri was the civil new
year, Rosh HaShanah. The second calender I believe is still in use?
If these predicates are true, then what was the first calender?
Is it true, in determing the Jewish calender year, add 3761 to western
calender year?
The Jewish year 5765 begins on Sept 16 of the gregorian year 2004?
Answers would be much appreciated.
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
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From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
To: "Dave Washburn" <dwashbur AT nyx.net>
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Yeah!=20Thanx!
-----Original=20Message-----
From:=20Dave=20Washburn=20[mailto:dwashbur AT nyx.net]
Sent:=20Fri=207/22/2005=208:58=20PM
To:=20Read,=20James=20C
Subject:=20Re:=20[b-hebrew]=20Aramaic=20-=20Abba
=20
This=20came=20direct=20to=20me;=20did=20you=20intend=20it=20to=20go=20to=20=
the=20list?
On=20Friday=2022=20July=202005=2012:50,=20you=20wrote:
>=20Yeah,=20I've=20often=20wondered=20how=20much=20he=20spoke=20in=20greek=
=20and=20how
>=20much=20he=20spoke=20in=20aramian/hebrew.=20As=20greek=20was=20the=20la=
nguage=20for
>=20international=20relations=20and=20he=20usually=20spoke=20to=20people=20=
of=20his=20own
>=20nation=20I=20don't=20see=20how=20this=20would=20be=20necessary.=20Also=
,=20I=20think=20that
>=20if=20he=20wanted=20to=20be=20taken=20seriously=20by=20his=20fellow=20J=
udans,=20speaking
>=20Greek=20would=20not=20have=20been=20a=20good=20strategy.
>=20Also,=20I=20remember=20reading=20somewhere=20that=20Origen?=20(I=20thi=
nk)=20claimed
>=20that=20Matthew=20originally=20wrote=20his=20gospel=20in=20Hebrew=20and=
=20that=20it=20was
>=20still=20extant=20in=20his=20day=20in=20some=20library=20somewhere=20(s=
orry=20I=20can't
>=20be=20more=20specific).
>=20Plus,=20I=20remeber=20reading=20online=20somewhere,=20a=20few=20days=20=
ago,=20that=20back
>=20translation=20of=20Ye$ua's=20words=20makes=20them=20more=20rythmical=20=
and=20easy=20to
>=20remember=20(like=20the=20psalms).
>=20All=20this=20seems=20to=20point=20towards=20him=20speaking=20more=20in=
=20Hebrew/Aramaic.
>
>
>=20-----Original=20Message-----
>=20From:=20b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org=20on=20behalf=20of=20Dave=20=
Washburn
>=20Sent:=20Fri=207/22/2005=207:32=20PM
>=20To:=20b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>=20Subject:=20Re:=20[b-hebrew]=20Aramaic=20-=20Abba
>
>=20On=20Friday=2022=20July=202005=2010:27,=20Peter=20Kirk=20wrote:
>=20>=20On=2022/07/2005=2017:10,=20Yigal=20Levin=20wrote:
>=20>=20>Okay,=20then,=20assuming=20that=20Mark=20records=20the=20traditio=
n=20faithfully,=20the
>=20>=20>question=20is=20whether=20Jesus=20would=20have=20been=20using=20A=
ramaic=20or=20Hebrew,=20and
>=20>=20>whether=20the=20form=20ABBA=20at=20that=20time=20would=20have=20b=
een=20more=20formal=20or=20less.
>=20>=20>=20Or,=20on=20the=20other=20hand,=20what=20Mark=20intended=20by=20=
putting=20the=20word=20Abba=20in
>=20>=20>=20Jesus'=20mouth.=20I=20really=20don't=20think=20that=20we=20hav=
e=20enough=20information=20to
>=20>=20>=20go=20on.
>=20>
>=20>=20Well,=20there=20are=20several=20apparently=20Aramaic=20words=20rec=
orded=20in
>=20>=20transliteration=20in=20Mark's=20gospel,=20e.g.=20TALIQA=20in=205:4=
1=20and=20SABACQANI=20in
>=20>=2015:34=20(Q=20=3D=20theta,=20C=20=3D=20chi),=20and=20an=20apparentl=
y=20Hebrew=20one,=20ELWI=20=3D=20Elohi
>=20>=20in=2015:34=20(W=20=3D=20omega).=20Translations=20into=20Greek=20ar=
e=20given=20for=20all=20of=20them,
>=20>=20just=20as=20for=20"Abba".=20One=20interpretation=20is=20that=20Jes=
us=20was=20always=20speaking
>=20>=20Aramaic.=20Another=20is=20that=20Jesus=20was=20normally=20speaking=
=20Hebrew=20which=20was
>=20>=20translated=20into=20Greek,=20and=20the=20few=20Aramaic=20words=20p=
reserved=20are=20preserved
>=20>=20to=20show=20their=20distinctively=20Aramaic=20nature.
>
>=20Another=20possibility=20is=20that=20he=20spoke=20Greek=20a=20fair=20bi=
t=20of=20the=20time,=20since=20it
>=20was=20the=20trade=20language=20of=20the=20empire.=20=20We=20have=20sev=
eral=20recorded=20examples=20of
>=20him=20talking=20with=20Romans,=20at=20least=20one=20Phoenician,=20and=20=
so=20forth,=20so=20it=20seems
>=20very=20possible=20that=20he=20spoke=20Greek=20at=20least=20in=20his=20=
public=20speeches=20etc.=20and
>=20that=20the=20Aramaic=20words=20and=20phrases=20are=20rendered=20into=20=
Greek=20because=20he
>=20didn't=20use=20Aramaic=20all=20that=20much,=20relatively=20speaking.
--=20
Dave=20Washburn
http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
"Well,=20if=20I'd=20wanted=20a=20safe=20life,=20I=20guess=20I=20wouldn't=20=
have=20
married=20a=20man=20who=20studies=20rocks."=20-=20Betty=20Armstrong=20(Fay=
=20Masterson)
This=20email=20has=20been=20scanned=20for=20all=20viruses=20by=20the=20Mes=
sageLabs=20Email
Security=20System.
This=20email=20has=20been=20scanned=20for=20all=20viruses=20by=20the=20Mes=
sageLabs=20Email
Security=20System.
>From k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk Fri Jul 22 17:04:44 2005
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Thread-Topic: [b-hebrew] Hebrew calender?
Thread-Index: AcWO+rhieAaSpiKIQuOZlxV8EYg/ugABQx57
From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
To: "Stephen" <stephen4yeshua AT yahoo.com>
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As=20far=20as=20I=20know=20the=20months=20were=20Nisan=20(Abib),=20Ivyar=20=
(Ziv),=20Sivan,=20Tammuz,
=20Ab,=20Elul,=20Tishri=20(Ethanim),=20Heshvan=20(Bul),=20Chislev,=20Tebet=
h,=20Shebat,=20Adar=20&=20
Veadar.Each=20month=20was=2029/30=20days=20and=20thus=20a=2012=20month=20y=
ear=20
fell=20approx=2011=20days=20short=20of=20a=20complete=20solar=20cycle=20(i=
e=20year).=20
Additional=20days=20were=20added=20to=20pad=20out=20the=20year.=20In=20pos=
t=20times=20
the=2013th=20month=20veadar=20(or=202nd=20adar)=20was=20introduced=20to=20=
make=20the=20year=20fit=20
a=20solar=20cycle.
You=20are=20right=20in=20thinking=20that=20Nisan=20was=20the=20first=20mon=
th=20of=20the=20year=20
established=20by=20Yah=20and=20this=20is=20logical=20really=20because=20sp=
ring=20is=20when=20
everything=20springs=20to=20life=20and=20so=20is=20a=20logical=20way=20to=20=
start=20the=20year.
-----Original=20Message-----
From:=20b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org=20on=20behalf=20of=20Stephen
Sent:=20Fri=207/22/2005=209:19=20PM
To:=20b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject:=20[b-hebrew]=20Hebrew=20calender?
=20
=20
I=20am=20curious=20about=20the=20original=20Hebrew=20calender.
=20
The=20gregorian=20calender,=20used=20by=20most=20western=20nations=20today=
,=20was=20established=20by=20pope=20gregory=20VII=20in=201582.=20It=20is=20=
a=20solar=20calender.
=20
In=20Jewish=20calender=20the=20months=20are=20determined=20by=20the=20moon=
,=20and=20year=20by=20the=20sun,=20as=20far=20as=20I=20can=20tell?
=20
In=20think=20there=20are=2012=20months=20with=2029=20or=2030=20days,=20in=20=
the=20Jewish=20calender?
=20
Over=20the=20years=20it=20is=20clear=20the=20names=20of=20the=20months=20a=
nd=20the=20process=20of=20establishing=20the=20calender=20has=20changed,=20=
following=20babylonian=20exile=20in=20586=20to=20516=20BC,=20and=20now=20t=
he=20Jewish=20calender=20refelcts=20babylonian=20names,=20as=20these=20nam=
es=20still=20appear=20in=20the=20Jewish=20calender.
=20
I=20am=20curious=20if=20first,=20I=20am=20off=20base=20on=20these=20predic=
ates,=20and=20second,=20if=20I=20am=20not=20off,=20=20then=20what=20are=20=
the=20original=20Hebrew=20Jewish=20names=20for=20the=20calender?
=20
I=20know=20today=20the=20new=20moon=20is=20called=20Rosh=20Hodesh=20(head=20=
of=20months)=20and=20is=20marked=20in=20the=20synagogue=20with=20prayers,=20=
Torah=20readings,=20and=20special=20greetings.
=20
I=20know=20in=20Exodus=20Elohiym=20established=20the=20order=20of=20months=
.=20This,=20as=20I=20believe,=20was=20the=20first=20calender=20used=20to=20=
determine=20the=20holy=20days.=20
=20
Could=20(Nisan)=20be=20the=20original=20Hebrew=20name=20of=20the=20first=20=
month=20and=20marks=20the=20redemption=20of=20Yisrael=20from=20Egypt?
=20
By=20the=20time=20of=20Y'shua,=20there=20was=20a=20second=20calender=20use=
d=20for=20civil=20affairs.=20This=20calender=20began=20with=20the=20month=20=
Tishri.=20The=20first=20Tishri=20was=20the=20civil=20new=20year,=20Rosh=20=
HaShanah.=20The=20second=20calender=20I=20believe=20is=20still=20in=20use?=
=20
If=20these=20predicates=20are=20true,=20then=20what=20was=20the=20first=20=
calender?
=20
Is=20it=20true,=20in=20determing=20the=20Jewish=20calender=20year,=20add=20=
3761=20to=20western=20calender=20year?
=20
The=20Jewish=20year=20=205765=20begins=20on=20Sept=2016=20of=20the=20grego=
rian=20year=202004?
=20
Answers=20would=20be=20much=20appreciated.
=20
=20
=09=09
---------------------------------
=20Start=20your=20day=20with=20Yahoo!=20-=20make=20it=20your=20home=20page=
=20
_______________________________________________
b-hebrew=20mailing=20list
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From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
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Yeah!=20You're=20absolutely=20right.=20I'm=20just=20working=20from=20thing=
s=20I=20have=20
heard=20or=20read=20from=20past=20lecturers=20etc.=20and=20just=20taken=20=
it=20for=20granted=20
that=20these=20things=20are=20true.=20I=20would=20be=20very=20interested=20=
in=20hearing=20
the=20primary=20sources=20that=20touch=20on=20this=20matter.=20Another=20p=
ossibility=20is=20
that=20the=20hebrew=20spoken=20by=20the=20hebrews=20of=20the=20first=20cen=
tury=20had=20been=20
affected=20by=20the=20exile=206=20centuries=20before=20and=20for=20this=20=
reason=20bears=20
similarities=20to=20what=20we=20refer=20to=20as=20Aramaic.=20Personally,=20=
I=20have=20
always=20found=20it=20difficult=20to=20accept=20that=20Israel=20could=20so=
=20easily=20lose=20
touch=20with=20Hebrew=20when=20their=20whole=20religion,=20culture,=20laws=
=20etc.=20was=20
based=20on=20texts=20written=20in=20hebrew.=20
Another=20thing=20to=20take=20into=20account=20is=20that=20Yeshua=20and=20=
his=20crew=20were=20
from=20Galilee=20and=20were=20noted=20for=20their=20'dialect'.=20Although,=
=20I've=20never=20
been=20sure=20if=20this=20is=20referring=20to=20their=20accent=20and=20pro=
nunciation=20or=20
a=20country=20bumpkin=20version=20of=20hebrew=20and=20whether=20this=20exp=
lains=20the=20
words=20we=20view=20as=20aramaic.
One=20thing=20that=20does=20seem=20certain=20is=20that=20Greek=20was=20muc=
h=20stronger=20than=20
Latin=20despite=20the=20strong=20Roman=20control=20of=20the=20present=20wo=
rld.=20As=20we=20see=20
that=20most=20of=20the=20Christian=20writings=20were=20in=20Greek=20and=20=
not=20Latin=20(including=20
Paul's=20epistle=20to=20the=20Romans).
-----Original=20Message-----
From:=20Ken=20Penner=20[mailto:pennerkm AT mcmaster.ca]
Sent:=20Fri=207/22/2005=207:57=20PM
To:=20Read,=20James=20C
Cc:=20b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject:=20RE:=20[b-hebrew]=20Aramaic=20-=20Abba
=20
Hi=20James,
There=20must=20be=20more=20to=20your=20argument,=20which=20as=20it=20stand=
s=20appears=20to=20be:
Aramaic=20was=20sometimes=20used=20by=20Jews=20in=20the=20Second=20Temple=20=
period.
Therefore=20"Aramaic=20had=20firmly=20supplanted=20the=20Hebrew=20language=
=20in=20everyday
use"=20in=20the=20first=20century.
It=20seems=20to=20me=20that=20three=20languages=20were=20in=20use=20in=20f=
irst=20century=20Judaea,=20so
demonstrating=20the=20use=20of=20one=20does=20not=20demonstrate=20its=20do=
minance=20over=20the
others.=20But=20it=20would=20be=20helpful=20to=20consider=20which=20=20kin=
ds=20of=20evidence=20could
we=20appeal=20to=20in=20order=20to=20show=20which=20(if=20any)=20of=20the=20=
three=20was=20dominant=20for
everyday=20use.
Ken=20Penner
>=20Of=20the=20top=20of=20my=20head=20the=20fact=20that=20large=20portions=
=20of=20Daniel=20
>=20are=20written=20in=20Aramaic=20show=20that=20this=20shift=20had=20bega=
n.=20Also=20
>=20Jesus=20use=20of=20Aramaic=20shows=20it=20was=20either=20used=20in=20h=
is=20day=20or=20
>=20he=20was=20just=20using=20loanwords.=20And=20finally,=20aren't=20some=20=
of=20the=20
>=20apocryphal=20writings=20after=20the=20exile=20written=20in=20a=20strai=
n=20of=20
>=20Aramaic?=20(I=20haven't=20read=20them=20and=20so=20I'm=20just=20going=20=
of=20secondary=20
>=20sources)
This=20email=20has=20been=20scanned=20for=20all=20viruses=20by=20the=20Mes=
sageLabs=20Email
Security=20System.
This=20email=20has=20been=20scanned=20for=20all=20viruses=20by=20the=20Mes=
sageLabs=20Email
Security=20System.
>From k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk Fri Jul 22 17:17:14 2005
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Thread-Topic: [b-hebrew] YHWH Pronunciation cantilation mark
Thread-Index: AcWO7m9WDGzJsWKDRHedawSF67UIgQAE91lF
From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
To: "David P Donnelly" <davedonnelly1 AT juno.com>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH Pronunciation cantilation mark
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I=20don't=20think=20the=20value=20of=20the=20cantilation=20mark=20should=20=
be=20
so=20easily=20dismissed.=20I=20am=20not=20familiar=20with=20the=20rules=20=
of=20
cantillation=20but=20one=20thing=20seems=20clear=20to=20me:
The=20psalm=20was=20originally=20composed=20with=20'yhwh'=20and=20so=20its=
=20
original=20rhythm=20would=20be=20dictated=20by=20it.=20Supplanting=20a=20
2=20syllable=20word=20with=203=20syllable=20one=20=20in=20poetry=20would=20=
make
a=20noticable=20and=20significant=20change=20to=20the=20poem's=20rhythm=20=
in=20
any=20language.
This=20email=20has=20been=20scanned=20for=20all=20viruses=20by=20the=20Mes=
sageLabs=20Email
Security=20System.
>From Bearpecs AT aol.com Fri Jul 22 17:33:31 2005
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH Pronunciation cantilation mark
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In a message dated 7/22/2005 5:17:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk writes:
Supplanting a
2 syllable word with 3 syllable one in poetry would make
a noticable and significant change to the poem's rhythm in
any language.
Not necessarily. Review some texts on the poetry of Biblical Hebrew. Many
scholars conclude that stresses, not syllables, are the basis of rhythm in
Biblical Hebrew.
-
[b-hebrew] Hebrew calender?,
Stephen, 07/22/2005
- <Possible follow-up(s)>
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Hebrew calender?,
Yigal Levin, 07/23/2005
- Re: [b-hebrew] Hebrew calender?, Yigal Levin, 07/27/2005
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