Biblical Hebrew Forum

[David P Donnelly <davedonnelly1 AT juno.com>]

Peter Kirk said:

>>>
This is interesting, but anomalous, 
as when the Elohim pronunciation is intended the regular pointing 
e.g. in Deuteronomy 3:24, 9:26,  Ezekiel  2:4, 3:11 is with sheva, not
hataf segol. 

But then the hataf segol is not unique to Judges 16:28 
as it is also found in Genesis 15:2,8,  but  apparently nowhere else. 

In fact these are the only cases in the  Hebrew  Bible of hataf segol
under yod.
 
(All of this taken from BHS, assumed  to  be an accurate reflection of
L.)
>>>

Peter,

My reprint of the 1866 Letteris Edition of the Hebrew Bible preserves the
spelling 
[yod-hatef segol-he-holem-vav-hireq-he] 305 times, 
where YHWH follows Adonay.

I assume, but do not know for sure, 
that the same situation exists in the Ben Chayyim Hebrew text of 1525,
which underlies the Old Testament of the King James Bible

Below is a link to a photo from Smith's "A dictionary of the Bible"
published in 1863;
Although first published in 1863, this photo shows how YHWH is pointed 
when YHWH follows Adonay in the 1866 Leteris edition of the Hebrew Bible.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/264290/JehovahSmithsBibleDictionary
.jpg 

Since the photo was first published in 1863,
3 years before the Letteris edition of the Hebrew Bible was published, 
it is at least possible that it showed how YHWH was pointed when YHWH
followed Adonay
in the Ben Chayyim Hebrew Text of 1525.

Dave Donnelly





On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:38:40 +0100 Peter Kirk <peterkirk AT qaya.org>
writes:
> On 22/07/2005 11:58, David P Donnelly wrote:
> 
> > ...
> >
> >Peter,
> >
> >Why would the Masoretes point YHWH with the vowels  
> shewa-holem-qamets,
> >if they wanted the Hebrew reader to pronounce that spelling 
> "Adonay"?
> >
> >Why wouldn't the Masoretes have pointed YHWH with the vowels hatef
> >patah-holem-qamets,
> >if they were trying to indicate to the Jewish reader he was to 
> read
> >"Adonay" ?
> >  
> >
> 
> One reason might be that hataf patah is never normally found under 
> yod, 
> and physically there is not space to write it there.
> 
> >At Judges 16:28 when YHWH followed Adonay,
> >the Masoretes pointed YHWH with the precise vowels of Elohiym,
> >which included placing the composite shewa, hatef segol under the 
> yod.
> >  
> >
> 
> This is interesting, but anomalous, as when the Elohim pronunciation 
> is 
> intended the regular pointing e.g. in Deuteronomy 3:24, 9:26, 
> Ezekiel 
> 2:4, 3:11 is with sheva, not hataf segol. But then the hataf segol 
> is 
> not unique to Judges 16:28 as it is also found in Genesis 15:2,8, 
> but 
> apparently nowhere else. In fact these are the only cases in the 
> Hebrew 
> Bible of hataf segol under yod. (All of this taken from BHS, assumed 
> to 
> be an accurate reflection of L.)
> 
> Here are some statistics for YHWH pointed as Elohim in the 
> Westminster 
> Leningrad Codex:
> 
> Y:EHWIH - 2 (GEN 15:2,8)
> Y:EHOWIH - 1 (JDG 16:28)
> Y:HWIH - 271
> Y:HOWIH - 31 (1KI 2:26; PSA 73:28; 140:8; ISA 50:4; JER 1:6; 7:20; 
> EZK 
> 2:4; 3:11,27; 5:5; 8:1; 12:10; 13:16; 14:21,23; 16:36; 17:9; 20:39; 
> 
> 21:33; 22:31; 23:32; 24:6,14; 26:21; 28:2; 30:22; 33:25; 39:17; 
> 43:27; 
> 46:16; ZEC 9:14)
> W:L"YHWIH - 1 (PSA 68:21)
> 
> And then for comparison, other cases of YHWH:
> 
> Y:HWFH - 4488
> Forms ending in Y:HWFH - 1187
> Forms ending in YHWFH - 788
> Y:HOWFH - 30 (GEN 3:14; 9:26; EXO 3:2; 13:3,9,15; 14:1,8; LEV 25:17; 
> DEU 
> 32:9; 33:12,13; 1KI 3:5; PSA 15:1; 40:5; 47:6; 100:5; 116:5,6; PRO 
> 1:29; 
> JER 2:37; 3:22,25; 4:3; 5:3,19; 6:9; 36:8; EZK 44:5; NAM 1:3)
> Forms ending in Y:HOWFH - 14 (DEU 31:27; 1KI 16:33; JER 3:1,13,21; 
> 4:8; 
> 5:2,9,15,18,22,29; 8:13; 30:10)
> Forms ending in YHOWFH - 1 (GEN 18:17; EXO 13:12; LEV 23:34; JER 
> 3:23; 
> 4:4; EZK 46:13)
> 
> I also found the following interesting case, which is the only hataf 
> 
> patah under yod in the Hebrew Bible:
> 
> $EY:AHWFH - 1 (PSA 144:15)
> 
> These statistics also put paid to Nehemiah Gordon's argument that 
> the 
> holam is written when the intended pronunciation is Elohim, and 
> omitted 
> only when the pronunciation is Adonay. Gordon, as quoted by Steven 
> Avery, wrote:
> 
> >"only reason the Masoretic scribes would have left the form Yehowih 
> without 
> >dropping the vowel after the hey is because they knew this was not 
> the true 
> >pronunciation of the divine name. ... the Masoretic scribes knew 
> the name to be 
> >Yehovah and suppressed its pronunciation by omitting the "o". This 
> is confirmed 
> >by the fact that the scribes actually forgot to suppress the vowel 
> "o" in a 
> >number of instances."
> >
> 
> But it seems that in the great majority of cases the Masoretic 
> scribes 
> didn't write the holam from Y:HOWIH, as well as in Y:HOWFH. So a 
> different explanation is needed of why the holam is sometimes 
> written 
> and sometimes not.
> 
> >In 1008-1010 A.D. the Masoretes did not seem to recognize any 
> Hebrew
> >grammar rules,
> >that might have prevented them from placing a composite shewa under 
> a
> >yod.
> >
> >  
> >
> I think it might be safer to say that they did have such a rule but 
> that 
> it was not applied 100%, as four exceptions are found in the Hebrew 
> 
> Bible - as listed above, there are none with hataf qamats. Also, in 
> 
> Masoretic times sheva may have been pronounced more like hataf patah 
> 
> than hataf segol, and so the former distinction could be lost 
> without 
> cost but the latter could not. Nevertheless, there are a lot of 
> potentially fascinating details to look at here.
> 
> -- 
> Peter Kirk
> peter AT qaya.org (personal)
> peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
> http://www.qaya.org/
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/55 - Release Date: 
> 21/07/2005
> 
> 
> 
>From k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk  Fri Jul 22 09:40:12 2005
Return-Path: <k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail70.messagelabs.com (mail70.messagelabs.com
        [193.109.255.115])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5932A4C006
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:40:11 -0400 
(EDT)
X-VirusChecked: Checked
X-Env-Sender: k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk
X-Msg-Ref: server-5.tower-70.messagelabs.com!1122039608!72809488!1
X-StarScan-Version: 5.4.15; banners=kingston.ac.uk,-,-
X-Originating-IP: [141.241.2.18]
Received: (qmail 6483 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 13:40:08 -0000
Received: from kuexim2.king.ac.uk (141.241.2.18)
        by server-5.tower-70.messagelabs.com with SMTP;
        22 Jul 2005 13:40:08 -0000
Received: from [141.241.17.18] (helo=KUDBEX01.kuds.kingston.ac.uk)
        by kuexim2.king.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50)
        id 1Dvxl2-0005jE-Bm; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:40:08 +0100
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:40:08 +0100
Message-ID: 
<6B84A53BD25BCA46B070A05DD8C8C9F813A396 AT KUDBEX01.kuds.kingston.ac.uk>
X-MS-Has-Attach: 
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 
Thread-Topic: [b-hebrew] Herodotus
Thread-Index: AcWOkxp0Whh+ZVziQu29JWex2lA8BwALw8qM
From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
To: "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.6
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Herodotus
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6
Precedence: list
List-Id: Hebrew Bible List <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:40:12 -0000

When=20I=20was=20a=20classical=20greek=20student=20we=20used=20to=20use=20=
an=20online=20
resource=20called=20perseus.=20I=20can't=20remember=20the=20URL=20but=20it=
=20has=20
perseus=20in=20it=20at=20some=20point.=20As=20far=20as=20I=20can=20remembe=
r=20it=20
wasn't=20easily=20copiable=20because=20it=20will=20only=20give=20you=20a=20=
few=20chapters=20
at=20a=20time=20and=20so=20copying=20can=20be=20laborious.=20And=20the=20t=
ext=20used=20
transliterations=20and=20not=20greek=20fonts=20if=20I=20remember=20rightly=
=20but=20
once=20you've=20got=20the=20text=20conversion=20to=20unicode=20should=20be=
=20
straighforward=20enough=20as=20long=20as=20the=20transliteration=20is=20un=
iform.

Sorry=20I=20couldn't=20be=20more=20helpful=20than=20this.=20If=20you=20can=
't=20find=20
a=20greek=20text=20and=20only=20manage=20to=20get=20the=20transliteration=20=
I=20can=20do=20
the=20conversion=20for=20you=20if=20you=20send=20me=20the=20text=20file.


-----Original=20Message-----
From:=20b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org=20on=20behalf=20of=20Yigal=20Le=
vin
Sent:=20Fri=207/22/2005=209:55=20AM
To:=20b-hebrew;=20biblical-studies AT yahoogroups.com;=20archaeology2@yahoogr=
oups.com;=20neareasternarchaeology AT yahoogroups.com
Subject:=20[b-hebrew]=20Herodotus
=20
Excuse=20the=20cross-posting=20and=20the=20not-quite-on-topic-request,=20b=
ut=20does=20anyone=20know=20of=20an=20easily=20copiable=20online=20Greek=20=
text=20of=20Herodotus?

Thanks,

Yigal=20Levin

This=20email=20has=20been=20scanned=20for=20all=20viruses=20by=20the=20Mes=
sageLabs=20Email
Security=20System.


This=20email=20has=20been=20scanned=20for=20all=20viruses=20by=20the=20Mes=
sageLabs=20Email
Security=20System.
>From jwest AT highland.net  Fri Jul 22 09:47:54 2005
Return-Path: <jwest AT highland.net>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from SMTP03.INFOAVE.NET (smtp03.infoave.net [165.166.0.28])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1471B4C006
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:47:53 -0400 
(EDT)
Received: from [64.53.76.82] by SMTP00.InfoAve.Net (PMDF V6.2-X31 #31155)
        with ESMTP id <01LQX6P2OGRG9KPS8M AT SMTP00.InfoAve.Net> for
        b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:47:25 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:47:26 -0400
From: Jim West <jwest AT highland.net>
To: biblical-studies AT yahoogroups.com, b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org,
        g-megillot AT mcmaster.ca
Message-id: <42E0F8EE.6030104 AT highland.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206)
Subject: [b-hebrew] IOSOT 2007
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6
Precedence: list
List-Id: Hebrew Bible List <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:47:54 -0000

Listers may be interested in the upcoming IOSOT meeting in 2007 in Slovenia.

The web page of the IOSOT is here:

http://www.iosot2007.si/temp/

Jim

-- 
D. Jim West

Biblical Studies Resources -  http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
Biblical Theology Weblog -  http://biblical-studies.blogspot.com