Biblical Hebrew Forum

["wattswestmaas" <wattswestmaas AT eircom.net>]

Jack Said"

However in neither case, 1 Sam 15 and 2 Sam 21, is there any suggestion that
those who died had anything at all to do with the crimes in quesiton.

Certainly none of the Ameleq alive at the time of Moses was alive when Saul
was alive.  2 Sam 21 does not even hint that Saul's sons, much less
grandsons, had anything to do with the crimes of Saul against the
Gibeonites.

While the corporate may get punished, it is the individual in each case who
actually suffers.

Response from Chris:

I have been following this thread carefully and since it diversified a bit
have not wished to answer even though I was at times tempted.  But I really
must say, Jack, that I have to reply to this one.

Surely it is noteworthy that you can not possibly know the crimes that were
being committed by the Amalekites at this stage.  It is so so very easy to
judge a situation when all you have is a snippet of information and an
apparantly HIGHER sense of what is Just and unjust in a situation (and I
have been guilty of that myself),  The crucial point is that we are fooling
ourselves if we really believe that we have a higher sense of moral
rectitude when we don't.  There is ample biblical evidence to support the
fact that the amalekites were an opportunistic plundering nomadic tribe with
very little respect for others.  (and there were numerous 5th to 9th century
European equivalents).  THIS IS NOT A CASE OR AN EXAMPLE OF THE OUTWORKING
OF EXODUS 34:7!!!!!

As for the famine in David's time.  HOW MANY ISRAELITES DO YOU THINK THERE
WERE THAT SUPPORTED SAUL LONG AFTER HE WAS KILLED?  You can not declare that
these were all innocent people suffering because God wanted to teach David
something;  that is, I do believe, somewhat short-sighted of the whole
situation.  There are NO such things as human sacrifices in the scripture,
directly or indirectly, ordered by God in order to ATONE for a sin. No Way!
These situations have absolutely nothing to do with exodus 34:7.

People have remarked how poor Austria was that she should have Hitler claim
that land as he annexed it to be a part of greater Germany.  They have
remarked that the suffering of the Austrian people was not their fault.  As
true as that may be for HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS,,,,It was the
THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS who lined the streets to welcome him
that day!

How the returning amalekites would have been welcomed as they returned from
their blood orgies with booty for their families STOLEN FROM THEIR HELPLESS
VICTIMS.  How the Amorites would be cheered as they told of how they
slaughtered women and pregnant women at that and how their warriors feasted
and rewarded themselves daily with cruel acts.  I really could go on.  But
do not be so eager to declare a people innocent.   God used Israel to
Inflict God's judgements NOT because Israel was righteous but because the
INHABITANTS OF THE LANDS HAD HAD THEIR YEARS FULL OF THE REWARDS OF
BLOODTHIRSTY CRIMES AND IDOLATRIES.   The fact that God may USE a somewhat
odd instrument or METHOD to achieve that aim is common in scripture.

regards Chris