Biblical Hebrew Forum

[George F Somsel <gfsomsel AT juno.com>]

Karl,

Note the first line "Here is my rendition of Job 34.10-29."  It is MY
translation.

george
gfsomsel
___________

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:27:58 -0500 "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
writes:
> George:
> 
> Just out of curiosity, whose translation did you transcribe below?
> 
> It doesn't feel like an awkward translation with many hebreisms as I 
> would expect from a scholar to scholar translation, rather it feels 
> more like a modern paraphrase (to use a term in a way Peter Kirk 
> objects (sorry, Peter ;-(  )) targetted at an audience who doesn't 
> know Hebrew.
> 
> Furthermore, there were several places where I question the 
> translation, such as v. 29 where to pronounce wicked (piel verb 
> here?) is translated as "condemn" and in v. 10 "men of heart" comes 
> out as "reflective men"? How so? In v. 20 the noun (M people is 
> omitted.
> 
> Karl W. Randolph.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel AT juno.com>
> 
> > 
> > On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 11:25:08 -0500 "Karl Randolph" 
> <kwrandolph AT email.com>
> > writes:
> > > George:
> > >
> > > To be honest, I’m not sure what the first half of that verse 
> means.
> > >
> > > &#1497;&#1512;&#1506; &#1499;&#1489;&#1497;&#1512;&#1497;&#1501; 
> &#1500;&#1488; &#1495;&#1511;&#1512; YR( KBYRYM L) XQR
> > >
> > > If YR( is a qal verb, should it not agree in aspect with the 
> > > second verb in the verse? With the effect of the waw on 
> switching 
> > > aspect, should that not make the qal verb a perfective aspect, 
> in 
> > > other words, another example of YR( as its root?
> > >
> > > And my questions based on etymologies calls into question the 
> > > assigning the meaning of “mighty ones” to KBYRYM. And you have 
> no 
> > > answer for that.
> > >
> > > One option is to make YR( a perfective verb, so that it would 
> > > read, “He shook out uninvestigable vastnesses and made others 
> > > stand in their place.” referring to God’s actions.
> > >
> > > You have staked out a position that Job 34:24 is the primary 
> > > proof passage for the existance of R(( II root with the meaning 
> > > of smashing, to apply it to Jeremiah 15:12, but you have not 
> > > demonstrated how it can be so.
> > >
> > > As a person who is largely self-taught in Hebrew, I am not 
> > > impressed by the mere statements of “experts”, I need to know 
> > > _why_ they made those statements. And if I don’t see their 
> logic, 
> > > I’ll say so. I’m willing to be the boy who cries out, “The 
> > > emporer has no clothes!”
> > >
> > > As a lexicographer, to be certain of the meaning of a lexeme, a 
> 
> > > proof passage to demonstrate that meaning needs to be clear with 
> 
> > > no questions. Unfortunately, that is often not the case—often 
> > > there are no clear proof passages to use to discern the meaning 
> 
> > > of lexemes, particularly for lexemes used five times or fewer in 
> 
> > > Tanakh. In those cases we use etymologies, cognate languages and 
> 
> > > earlier translation (e.g. LXX) and from those make a guess.
> > >
> > > There are no clear proof passages demonstrating the existance of 
> 
> > > the R(( II root. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, just that 
> > > the case for it is very weak. Of the five times Lisowski claims 
> 
> > > it is used, there are grammatical and/or translation reasons in 
> 
> > > three of the verses to question its existance, and the other two 
> 
> > > verses are unclear. BDB claimed that there are a few more 
> > > examples of its use, but even other lexicographers question 
> those.
> > >
> > > In closing, you made the claim that Job 34:24 proves the 
> > > existance of the R(( II root. How?
> > >
> > > Karl W. Randolph.
> > ____________________
> > Karl,
> > 
> > Here is my rendition of Job 34.10-29
> > 
> >   This is the speech of Elihu to Job
> > 
> > 10 Therefore, hear me, you reflective men.
> >         Forbid to God wickedness
> >          And to Shaddai injustice
> > 11   According to the work of man He requites him
> >          And as man's way He recompenses.
> > 12   Truly indeed, God will not act wickedly
> >          Nor Shaddai pervert judgment
> > 13   Who foisted the earth upon Him?
> >          Who imposed the whole world?
> > 14   If He should set His mind
> >         His spirit and breath is removed to Himself,
> > 15   All flesh will perish together
> >         And man will return to the dust.
> > 16   If [you are] understanding hear this;
> >          Heed the the sound of my speech.
> > 17   Shall even he who hates it administer justice?
> >         Will you condemn the righteous, mighty [One]?
> > 18   Him who says to the king, "[You are] worthless!"
> >          To the nobles, "[You are] criminals!"
> > 19   Who does not fawn on princes
> >          Nor pass over the plea of the poor
> >          For the work of His hands are they all.
> > 20   Suddenly, — they die
> >         At midnight they convulse and pass on
> >        The mighty depart untouched.
> > 21   For His eyes are upon the ways of man
> >         All his steps He sees.
> > 22   There is no darkness or deep shadow
> >         That evildoers may hide there
> > 23   For no other [time] has He established for man
> >         To come to God for judgment.
> > 24   He smashes the mighty unhesitatingly
> >          And establishes others after them.
> > 25   Truly He observes their deeds,
> >         Overthrows them at night
> >         And they are crushed.
> > 26   On account of wickedness He assails them
> >         In a place in full view.
> > 27   Because they turned aside from after Him
> >         And all His ways they did not consider
> > 28  To cause the cry of the poor to come before Him
> >         But He heard the cry of the humble.
> > 29   When He is quiet then who condemns?
> >         When He hides [His] face, then who can regard Him?
> >         Either nation or individual?
> > george
> > gfsomsel
> > ___________