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  • From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel AT juno.com>
  • To: kwrandolph AT email.com
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Re: Job 34.10-29 (was: Syntax of Jeremiah 15:12)
  • Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:41:40 -0500

Karl,

Note the first line "Here is my rendition of Job 34.10-29." It is MY
translation.

george
gfsomsel
___________

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:27:58 -0500 "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
writes:
> George:
>
> Just out of curiosity, whose translation did you transcribe below?
>
> It doesn't feel like an awkward translation with many hebreisms as I
> would expect from a scholar to scholar translation, rather it feels
> more like a modern paraphrase (to use a term in a way Peter Kirk
> objects (sorry, Peter ;-( )) targetted at an audience who doesn't
> know Hebrew.
>
> Furthermore, there were several places where I question the
> translation, such as v. 29 where to pronounce wicked (piel verb
> here?) is translated as "condemn" and in v. 10 "men of heart" comes
> out as "reflective men"? How so? In v. 20 the noun (M people is
> omitted.
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel AT juno.com>
>
> >
> > On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 11:25:08 -0500 "Karl Randolph"
> <kwrandolph AT email.com>
> > writes:
> > > George:
> > >
> > > To be honest, I’m not sure what the first half of that verse
> means.
> > >
> > > &#1497;&#1512;&#1506; &#1499;&#1489;&#1497;&#1512;&#1497;&#1501;
> &#1500;&#1488; &#1495;&#1511;&#1512; YR( KBYRYM L) XQR
> > >
> > > If YR( is a qal verb, should it not agree in aspect with the
> > > second verb in the verse? With the effect of the waw on
> switching
> > > aspect, should that not make the qal verb a perfective aspect,
> in
> > > other words, another example of YR( as its root?
> > >
> > > And my questions based on etymologies calls into question the
> > > assigning the meaning of “mighty ones” to KBYRYM. And you have
> no
> > > answer for that.
> > >
> > > One option is to make YR( a perfective verb, so that it would
> > > read, “He shook out uninvestigable vastnesses and made others
> > > stand in their place.” referring to God’s actions.
> > >
> > > You have staked out a position that Job 34:24 is the primary
> > > proof passage for the existance of R(( II root with the meaning
> > > of smashing, to apply it to Jeremiah 15:12, but you have not
> > > demonstrated how it can be so.
> > >
> > > As a person who is largely self-taught in Hebrew, I am not
> > > impressed by the mere statements of “experts”, I need to know
> > > _why_ they made those statements. And if I don’t see their
> logic,
> > > I’ll say so. I’m willing to be the boy who cries out, “The
> > > emporer has no clothes!”
> > >
> > > As a lexicographer, to be certain of the meaning of a lexeme, a
>
> > > proof passage to demonstrate that meaning needs to be clear with
>
> > > no questions. Unfortunately, that is often not the case—often
> > > there are no clear proof passages to use to discern the meaning
>
> > > of lexemes, particularly for lexemes used five times or fewer in
>
> > > Tanakh. In those cases we use etymologies, cognate languages and
>
> > > earlier translation (e.g. LXX) and from those make a guess.
> > >
> > > There are no clear proof passages demonstrating the existance of
>
> > > the R(( II root. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, just that
> > > the case for it is very weak. Of the five times Lisowski claims
>
> > > it is used, there are grammatical and/or translation reasons in
>
> > > three of the verses to question its existance, and the other two
>
> > > verses are unclear. BDB claimed that there are a few more
> > > examples of its use, but even other lexicographers question
> those.
> > >
> > > In closing, you made the claim that Job 34:24 proves the
> > > existance of the R(( II root. How?
> > >
> > > Karl W. Randolph.
> > ____________________
> > Karl,
> >
> > Here is my rendition of Job 34.10-29
> >
> > This is the speech of Elihu to Job
> >
> > 10 Therefore, hear me, you reflective men.
> > Forbid to God wickedness
> > And to Shaddai injustice
> > 11 According to the work of man He requites him
> > And as man's way He recompenses.
> > 12 Truly indeed, God will not act wickedly
> > Nor Shaddai pervert judgment
> > 13 Who foisted the earth upon Him?
> > Who imposed the whole world?
> > 14 If He should set His mind
> > His spirit and breath is removed to Himself,
> > 15 All flesh will perish together
> > And man will return to the dust.
> > 16 If [you are] understanding hear this;
> > Heed the the sound of my speech.
> > 17 Shall even he who hates it administer justice?
> > Will you condemn the righteous, mighty [One]?
> > 18 Him who says to the king, "[You are] worthless!"
> > To the nobles, "[You are] criminals!"
> > 19 Who does not fawn on princes
> > Nor pass over the plea of the poor
> > For the work of His hands are they all.
> > 20 Suddenly, — they die
> > At midnight they convulse and pass on
> > The mighty depart untouched.
> > 21 For His eyes are upon the ways of man
> > All his steps He sees.
> > 22 There is no darkness or deep shadow
> > That evildoers may hide there
> > 23 For no other [time] has He established for man
> > To come to God for judgment.
> > 24 He smashes the mighty unhesitatingly
> > And establishes others after them.
> > 25 Truly He observes their deeds,
> > Overthrows them at night
> > And they are crushed.
> > 26 On account of wickedness He assails them
> > In a place in full view.
> > 27 Because they turned aside from after Him
> > And all His ways they did not consider
> > 28 To cause the cry of the poor to come before Him
> > But He heard the cry of the humble.
> > 29 When He is quiet then who condemns?
> > When He hides [His] face, then who can regard Him?
> > Either nation or individual?
> > george
> > gfsomsel
> > ___________




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