Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>]

George:

Just out of curiosity, whose translation did you transcribe below?

It doesn't feel like an awkward translation with many hebreisms as I would 
expect from a scholar to scholar translation, rather it feels more like a 
modern paraphrase (to use a term in a way Peter Kirk objects (sorry, Peter 
;-(  )) targetted at an audience who doesn't know Hebrew.

Furthermore, there were several places where I question the translation, such 
as v. 29 where to pronounce wicked (piel verb here?) is translated as 
"condemn" and in v. 10 "men of heart" comes out as "reflective men"? How so? 
In v. 20 the noun (M people is omitted.

Karl W. Randolph.

----- Original Message -----
From: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel AT juno.com>

> 
> On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 11:25:08 -0500 "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
> writes:
> > George:
> >
> > To be honest, I’m not sure what the first half of that verse means.
> >
> > &#1497;&#1512;&#1506; &#1499;&#1489;&#1497;&#1512;&#1497;&#1501; 
> > &#1500;&#1488; &#1495;&#1511;&#1512; YR( KBYRYM L) XQR
> >
> > If YR( is a qal verb, should it not agree in aspect with the 
> > second verb in the verse? With the effect of the waw on switching 
> > aspect, should that not make the qal verb a perfective aspect, in 
> > other words, another example of YR( as its root?
> >
> > And my questions based on etymologies calls into question the 
> > assigning the meaning of “mighty ones” to KBYRYM. And you have no 
> > answer for that.
> >
> > One option is to make YR( a perfective verb, so that it would 
> > read, “He shook out uninvestigable vastnesses and made others 
> > stand in their place.” referring to God’s actions.
> >
> > You have staked out a position that Job 34:24 is the primary 
> > proof passage for the existance of R(( II root with the meaning 
> > of smashing, to apply it to Jeremiah 15:12, but you have not 
> > demonstrated how it can be so.
> >
> > As a person who is largely self-taught in Hebrew, I am not 
> > impressed by the mere statements of “experts”, I need to know 
> > _why_ they made those statements. And if I don’t see their logic, 
> > I’ll say so. I’m willing to be the boy who cries out, “The 
> > emporer has no clothes!”
> >
> > As a lexicographer, to be certain of the meaning of a lexeme, a 
> > proof passage to demonstrate that meaning needs to be clear with 
> > no questions. Unfortunately, that is often not the case—often 
> > there are no clear proof passages to use to discern the meaning 
> > of lexemes, particularly for lexemes used five times or fewer in 
> > Tanakh. In those cases we use etymologies, cognate languages and 
> > earlier translation (e.g. LXX) and from those make a guess.
> >
> > There are no clear proof passages demonstrating the existance of 
> > the R(( II root. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, just that 
> > the case for it is very weak. Of the five times Lisowski claims 
> > it is used, there are grammatical and/or translation reasons in 
> > three of the verses to question its existance, and the other two 
> > verses are unclear. BDB claimed that there are a few more 
> > examples of its use, but even other lexicographers question those.
> >
> > In closing, you made the claim that Job 34:24 proves the 
> > existance of the R(( II root. How?
> >
> > Karl W. Randolph.
> ____________________
> Karl,
> 
> Here is my rendition of Job 34.10-29
> 
>   This is the speech of Elihu to Job
> 
> 10 Therefore, hear me, you reflective men.
>         Forbid to God wickedness
>          And to Shaddai injustice
> 11   According to the work of man He requites him
>          And as man's way He recompenses.
> 12   Truly indeed, God will not act wickedly
>          Nor Shaddai pervert judgment
> 13   Who foisted the earth upon Him?
>          Who imposed the whole world?
> 14   If He should set His mind
>         His spirit and breath is removed to Himself,
> 15   All flesh will perish together
>         And man will return to the dust.
> 16   If [you are] understanding hear this;
>          Heed the the sound of my speech.
> 17   Shall even he who hates it administer justice?
>         Will you condemn the righteous, mighty [One]?
> 18   Him who says to the king, "[You are] worthless!"
>          To the nobles, "[You are] criminals!"
> 19   Who does not fawn on princes
>          Nor pass over the plea of the poor
>          For the work of His hands are they all.
> 20   Suddenly, — they die
>         At midnight they convulse and pass on
>        The mighty depart untouched.
> 21   For His eyes are upon the ways of man
>         All his steps He sees.
> 22   There is no darkness or deep shadow
>         That evildoers may hide there
> 23   For no other [time] has He established for man
>         To come to God for judgment.
> 24   He smashes the mighty unhesitatingly
>          And establishes others after them.
> 25   Truly He observes their deeds,
>         Overthrows them at night
>         And they are crushed.
> 26   On account of wickedness He assails them
>         In a place in full view.
> 27   Because they turned aside from after Him
>         And all His ways they did not consider
> 28  To cause the cry of the poor to come before Him
>         But He heard the cry of the humble.
> 29   When He is quiet then who condemns?
>         When He hides [His] face, then who can regard Him?
>         Either nation or individual?
> george
> gfsomsel
> ___________

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