Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Yigal Levin" <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>]

According to Joshua 7:4, Joshua's first attempt at capturing Ai was made with 
ke$lo$et alapim i$, "about three thousand men". In the next verse, the men of 
Ai smote of them ke$lo$im ve$iSah i$, "about thirty six men".

The prefix kaph is usually translated "like", "about" and so on. However in 
this context, "about 36" does not make sense. 36 is an exact number. I know 
that the Greek gives "eis", "into", but that doesn't explain anything. I've 
seen theories ranging from scribal error (dittography due to the preceding 
"ke$lo$et" - but with no textual evidence) through a theory of a 6-based 
system of counting, to the midrash that only Jair ben Manasseh was killed, 
but he was "like 36 men". I know that "eleph" is often thought to be a 
military or clan unit, so "about three elephs" makes sense. I also know that 
"$elo$im" may also be a military unit (as in 2 Sam. 23), so that "about a 
$elo$im" would also work, but then what about the extra 6? "about a $elo$im 
and six" does not. 

And before anyone asks, the only known Qumran version (4QJosh a and b) is 
missing this particular column.

Any ideas?

Yigal Levin
(and please excuse the cross-posting)
>From uhurwitz AT yahoo.com  Wed Dec 15 11:35:43 2004
Return-Path: <uhurwitz AT yahoo.com>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from web51607.mail.yahoo.com (web51607.mail.yahoo.com
        [206.190.38.212])
        by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id ECA9E4C005
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:35:42 -0500 
(EST)
Received: (qmail 56035 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Dec 2004 16:35:42 -0000
Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
        
b�sOCNjN5gSCOhdU4v6/afp8ZWtGkgCl42k0oCR/AFij1gibgTZ1CNyjF7YV8N7tyqubajb9VZKBNOUco+6C+WH8AIRkrsczYm+6WDKkdIOLXYXCroomyBmxJ6SRxRrSNUVl74DIORw8VbSuoLAY+mDdrBPLIC9jueWdyWrPb9E
     ;
Message-ID: <20041215163542.56032.qmail AT web51607.mail.yahoo.com>
Received: from [4.237.2.121] by web51607.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP;
        Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:35:41 PST
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:35:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Uri Hurwitz <uhurwitz AT yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] "about" Josh. 7:4-5
To: Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>, b-hebrew 
<b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
In-Reply-To: <003501c4e2bd$8fc33d90$2a664684@xp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5
Cc:
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5
Precedence: list
List-Id: Hebrew Bible List <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:35:43 -0000

 This may be simply another example of  an ancient scribal mistake  -- either 
in verse 4 or the next one.
  Another example is Isaiah 53:8, the ending of which was much discussed here 
in recent days.The Heb. text there was garbled.
  In such cases, and as Karl pointed out, quite a few occur in the MT, any 
suggested solution must be speculative, that is till the reappearance of 
Elijah who, according to the Talmudic expression, will solve questions and 
problems.
  (incidentally the acronym of the above saying serves as the word for "draw" 
in modern Heb. for sporting events etc.)

  Uri

Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il> wrote:
According to Joshua 7:4, Joshua's first attempt at capturing Ai was made with 
ke$lo$et alapim i$, "about three thousand men". In the next verse, the men of 
Ai smote of them ke$lo$im ve$iSah i$, "about thirty six men".

The prefix kaph is usually translated "like", "about" and so on. However in 
this context, "about 36" does not make sense. 36 is an exact number. I know 
that the Greek gives "eis", "into", but that doesn't explain anything. I've 
seen theories ranging from scribal error (dittography due to the preceding 
"ke$lo$et" - but with no textual evidence) through a theory of a 6-based 
system of counting, to the midrash that only Jair ben Manasseh was killed, 
but he was "like 36 men". I know that "eleph" is often thought to be a 
military or clan unit, so "about three elephs" makes sense. I also know that 
"$elo$im" may also be a military unit (as in 2 Sam. 23), so that "about a 
$elo$im" would also work, but then what about the extra 6? "about a $elo$im 
and six" does not.

And before anyone asks, the only known Qumran version (4QJosh a and b) is 
missing this particular column.

Any ideas?

Yigal Levin
(and please excuse the cross-posting)
_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
>From hholmyard AT ont.com  Wed Dec 15 11:40:01 2004
Return-Path: <hholmyard AT ont.com>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from online.OnlineToday.Com (online.OnlineToday.Com [204.181.200.2])
        by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA624C005
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:40:01 -0500 
(EST)
Received: from [205.242.61.128] (na139.OnlineToday.Com [205.242.61.139])
        by online.OnlineToday.Com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id 
iBFGdwrV015939
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:39:59 -0600 
(CST)
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: hholmyard AT mail.ont.com
Message-Id: <a06020405bde61864ba7a@[205.242.61.128]>
In-Reply-To: <003501c4e2bd$8fc33d90$2a664684@xp>
References: <003501c4e2bd$8fc33d90$2a664684@xp>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:37:50 -0600
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
From: "Harold R. Holmyard III" <hholmyard AT ont.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] "about" Josh. 7:4-5
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5
Precedence: list
List-Id: Hebrew Bible List <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:40:01 -0000

Dear Yigal,

>According to Joshua 7:4, Joshua's first attempt at capturing Ai was
>made with ke$lo$et alapim i$, "about three thousand men". In the
>next verse, the men of Ai smote of them ke$lo$im ve$iSah i$, "about
>thirty six men".
>
>The prefix kaph is usually translated "like", "about" and so on.
>However in this context, "about 36" does not make sense. 36 is an
>exact number.

HH: Maybe they knew that thirty-six men died, but they were not sure
whether the men of Ai were directly responsible for all the deaths.
Perhaps someone could have mistakenly run off a cliff or something.

                                Yours,
                                Harold Holmyard



>  I know that the Greek gives "eis", "into", but that doesn't explain
>anything. I've seen theories ranging from scribal error (dittography
>due to the preceding "ke$lo$et" - but with no textual evidence)
>through a theory of a 6-based system of counting, to the midrash
>that only Jair ben Manasseh was killed, but he was "like 36 men". I
>know that "eleph" is often thought to be a military or clan unit, so
>"about three elephs" makes sense. I also know that "$elo$im" may
>also be a military unit (as in 2 Sam. 23), so that "about a $elo$im"
>would also work, but then what about the extra 6? "about a $elo$im
>and six" does not.
>
>And before anyone asks, the only known Qumran version (4QJosh a and
>b) is missing this particular column.
>
>Any ideas?
>
>Yigal Levin
>(and please excuse the cross-posting)
>_______________________________________________
>b-hebrew mailing list
>b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew