Biblical Hebrew Forum

[<david.kimbrough AT charter.net>]

That is an interesting point but not a clarifying one.  Why does Judah think 
Tamar is a zonah?  Because she wore a veil (or her face was covered)!

* ky kSth Pnyh *

Well it is a NOT trade mark of a common prostitute (both in ancient and 
modern times in the Levant) to wear a veil.  "Proper" women cover their 
faces, a zonah certainly would not.

This does not answer the question of why the Adullamite was looking for a 
kadeshah if Judah thought that Tamar was actually a zonah.  The author could 
easily have had the Adullamite ask about a zonah but a very different word 
was used.  Was Judah embarrassed at having used a zonah and told his friend 
that the woman in question was a kadeshah to make the situation less 
humiliating?  This of course gets us right back to the question - did the 
author and the audience think that using a kadeshah was more honorable than a 
zonah?


>> Subject: RE: Kadeshah & Judah & the Adullamite
> 
> When the narrator gives us Judah's perspective he uses ZNH--WYR)H YHWDH
> WYX$BH LZNH (v. 15).
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vince
> 
> Associate Professor
> Central Bible College
> 3000 N. Grant Avenue
> Springfield, Missouri  65803
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: david.kimbrough AT charter.net [mailto:david.kimbrough AT charter.net] 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 11:46 AM
> To: Medina, Vincent; b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Kadeshah & Judah & the Adullamite
> 
> You are right but why was the Adullamite looking for a kadeshah if Judah
> had not told him to look for one? If Judah thought she was a zonah, why
> tell the Adullamite to look for a kadeshah?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > From: "Medina, Vincent" <VMedina AT cbcag.edu>
> > Date: 2004/07/14 Wed PM 04:38:37 GMT
> > To: <david.kimbrough AT charter.net>,  <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Subject: RE: Kadeshah & Judah
> > 
> > Guess again:
> > 
> > When Judah sent the kid by his friend the Adullamite, to recover the
> > pledge from the woman, he could not find her.  21 He asked the
> > townspeople, "Where is the temple prostitute who was at Enaim by the
> > wayside?" But they said, "No prostitute has been here."  22 So he
> > returned to Judah, and said, "I have not found her; moreover the
> > townspeople said, 'No prostitute has been here.'"
> > 
> > Regards, 
> > 
> > Vince
> > 
> > Associate Professor
> > Central Bible College
> > 3000 N. Grant Avenue
> > Springfield, Missouri  65803
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: david.kimbrough AT charter.net [mailto:david.kimbrough AT charter.net]
> 
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 11:34 AM
> > To: Medina, Vincent; b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Kadeshah & Judah
> > 
> > Not quite:
> > 
> > Genesis 38:21 (NASB) He [Judah] asked the men of her place, saying,
> > "Where is the temple prostitute [kadeshah] who was by the road at
> > Enaim?" But they said, "There has been no temple prostitute here."
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > From: "Medina, Vincent" <VMedina AT cbcag.edu>
> > > Date: 2004/07/14 Wed PM 04:28:20 GMT
> > > To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] Kadeshah
> > > 
> > > To be precise, from Judah's perspective she was a zonah (v. 15), it
> > was
> > > his Canaanite friend who referred to her as a Qadeshah (v. 21).
> > > 
> > > Vince
> > > 
> > > Associate Professor
> > > Central Bible College
> > > 3000 N. Grant Avenue
> > > Springfield, Missouri  65803
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
> > > david.kimbrough AT charter.net
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 10:50 AM
> > > To: Peter Kirk; Bearpecs AT aol.com
> > > Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subject: [b-hebrew] Kadeshah
> > > 
> > > While later traditions certainly condemns the ritual prostitutes, in
> > > Genesis 38 Judah thinks nothing too much amiss of making use of what
> > he
> > > thinks is a road side *kadeshah*, who is, of course, is actually is
> > > daughter in law Tamar.  Whenever Genesis 38 was writen, the author
> > (and
> > > audiance) obviously did not think using the services of *kadeshah*
> too
> > > taboo or the author would not have had one of the patriarchs doing
> so.
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > From: Peter Kirk <peterkirk AT qaya.org>
> > > > Date: 2004/07/14 Wed AM 08:29:22 GMT
> > > > To: Bearpecs AT aol.com
> > > > CC: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] "Sodomite" in 2 Kings 23.7 & Homosexuality
> > > > 
> > > > On 14/07/2004 05:04, Bearpecs AT aol.com wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > >...
> > > > > 
> > > > >I also think it is likely that a qadesha associated with a
> > sanctuary
> > > may  not 
> > > > >have been a "temple prostitute" in the sense of a woman who
> > commited
> > > sexual  
> > > > >acts for cultic, ritual reasons.  I am not aware of any evidence
> > that
> > > ancient 
> > > > >Israel practiced ritual sex for cultic purposes -- or even
> > > acknowledged  for 
> > > > >example any sympathetic magic of human sex encouraging
> agricultural
> > 
> > > > >fertility.  (And if you say that all the evidence has been
> > expurgated
> > > from  the Bible, 
> > > > >then why would the mention of qedeshot not also be expurgated?)
> > > Rather, I 
> > > > >would suggest that a qedesha may have been a woman (presumably a
> > > slave) 
> > > > >dedicated to the sanctuary, just as other items were dedicated to
> > the
> > > sanctuary.  
> > > > >Her income would then have belonged to the sanctuary.   Thus, she
> > may
> > > have been 
> > > > >a prostitute, and a "holy" prostitute in the sense that  her cost
> > > went to the 
> > > > >upkeep of the holy sanctuary, but not a "temple prostitute"  in
> the
> > > classic 
> > > > >meaning of the term.  (A qadesh -- whether performing  homosexual
> > or 
> > > > >heterosexual acts -- would similarly have been a sanctuary
> > > prostitute but did not engage 
> > > > >in sex for cultic purposes.)  This  would be just as deplorable
> in
> > > the eyes 
> > > > >of the Bible as temple prostitution, but  I suggest is more
> > > consistent with 
> > > > >what we know of the theological  environment.
> > > > > 
> > > > >  
> > > > >
> > > > The answer to your theory is in what Yigal wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > >In all of
> > > > >these, it refers to something that the Bible regards negatively,
> > some
> > > > >forbidden practice. Since the root QD$ is usually related to
> things
> > > > >"sacred", one would assume that here, too, the reference is to
> some
> > > > >forbidden cultic activity.
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > Furthermore, in many of the references QADESH is linked to the 
> > > > idolatrous practices of the neighbouring nations. It is clear
> that,
> > to
> > > 
> > > > the faithful Israelites who wrote the Bible books, this was
> > something 
> > > > alien, idolatrous and detestable which had been imported into
> > > Israelite 
> > > > religion by syncretists. Ritual sex for cultic purposes was indeed
> > > never 
> > > > a part of normative Yahwism. But the Bible repeatedly tells us
> that 
> > > > non-normative pagan practices were imported into Yahwism, and
> > > condemned 
> > > > by the biblical authors. Even without the explicit references, we
> > 
> > > would 
> > > > expect cultic prostitution to be one of these practices. 2 Kings
> > 23:7
> > > is 
> > > > one of the passages in which these practices are condemned, in
> that
> > > they 
> > > > were stamped out by Josiah who is commended as the ideal faithful
> > king
> > > 
> > > > (v.25).
> > > > 
> > > > So, although we cannot be sure exactly what a QADESH did, we
> cannot 
> > > > argue that it was not temple prostitution because this was not an 
> > > > Israelite practice. Israelite practice in the pre-exilic period
> did
> > > not 
> > > > always match the ideals of the Deuteronomist, and the texts bear
> > > witness 
> > > > to that in their condemnations. Indeed, at times, such as the
> reign
> > of
> > > 
> > > > Manasseh, Israelite practice was much like that of the surrounding
> 
> > > > nations, including child sacrifice (2 Kings 21:6), and the use of
> > the 
> > > > word QADESH in association with such periods suggests that temple 
> > > > prostitution was included.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
> > > > Peter Kirk
> > > > peter AT qaya.org (personal)
> > > > peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
> > > > http://www.qaya.org/
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > 
> > > 
> > > David Kimbrough
> > > San Gabriel
> > > 
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> > > 
> > 
> > David Kimbrough
> > San Gabriel
> > 
> > 
> 
> David Kimbrough
> San Gabriel
> 
> 

David Kimbrough
San Gabriel