Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Medina, Vincent" <VMedina AT cbcag.edu>]

When the narrator gives us Judah's perspective he uses ZNH--WYR)H YHWDH
WYX$BH LZNH (v. 15).

Regards,

Vince

Associate Professor
Central Bible College
3000 N. Grant Avenue
Springfield, Missouri  65803


-----Original Message-----
From: david.kimbrough AT charter.net [mailto:david.kimbrough AT charter.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 11:46 AM
To: Medina, Vincent; b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Kadeshah & Judah & the Adullamite

You are right but why was the Adullamite looking for a kadeshah if Judah
had not told him to look for one? If Judah thought she was a zonah, why
tell the Adullamite to look for a kadeshah?




> 
> From: "Medina, Vincent" <VMedina AT cbcag.edu>
> Date: 2004/07/14 Wed PM 04:38:37 GMT
> To: <david.kimbrough AT charter.net>,  <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: RE: Kadeshah & Judah
> 
> Guess again:
> 
> When Judah sent the kid by his friend the Adullamite, to recover the
> pledge from the woman, he could not find her.  21 He asked the
> townspeople, "Where is the temple prostitute who was at Enaim by the
> wayside?" But they said, "No prostitute has been here."  22 So he
> returned to Judah, and said, "I have not found her; moreover the
> townspeople said, 'No prostitute has been here.'"
> 
> Regards, 
> 
> Vince
> 
> Associate Professor
> Central Bible College
> 3000 N. Grant Avenue
> Springfield, Missouri  65803
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: david.kimbrough AT charter.net [mailto:david.kimbrough AT charter.net]

> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 11:34 AM
> To: Medina, Vincent; b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Kadeshah & Judah
> 
> Not quite:
> 
> Genesis 38:21 (NASB) He [Judah] asked the men of her place, saying,
> "Where is the temple prostitute [kadeshah] who was by the road at
> Enaim?" But they said, "There has been no temple prostitute here."
> 
> 
> > 
> > From: "Medina, Vincent" <VMedina AT cbcag.edu>
> > Date: 2004/07/14 Wed PM 04:28:20 GMT
> > To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] Kadeshah
> > 
> > To be precise, from Judah's perspective she was a zonah (v. 15), it
> was
> > his Canaanite friend who referred to her as a Qadeshah (v. 21).
> > 
> > Vince
> > 
> > Associate Professor
> > Central Bible College
> > 3000 N. Grant Avenue
> > Springfield, Missouri  65803
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
> > david.kimbrough AT charter.net
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 10:50 AM
> > To: Peter Kirk; Bearpecs AT aol.com
> > Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: [b-hebrew] Kadeshah
> > 
> > While later traditions certainly condemns the ritual prostitutes, in
> > Genesis 38 Judah thinks nothing too much amiss of making use of what
> he
> > thinks is a road side *kadeshah*, who is, of course, is actually is
> > daughter in law Tamar.  Whenever Genesis 38 was writen, the author
> (and
> > audiance) obviously did not think using the services of *kadeshah*
too
> > taboo or the author would not have had one of the patriarchs doing
so.
> > 
> > > 
> > > From: Peter Kirk <peterkirk AT qaya.org>
> > > Date: 2004/07/14 Wed AM 08:29:22 GMT
> > > To: Bearpecs AT aol.com
> > > CC: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] "Sodomite" in 2 Kings 23.7 & Homosexuality
> > > 
> > > On 14/07/2004 05:04, Bearpecs AT aol.com wrote:
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > >...
> > > > 
> > > >I also think it is likely that a qadesha associated with a
> sanctuary
> > may  not 
> > > >have been a "temple prostitute" in the sense of a woman who
> commited
> > sexual  
> > > >acts for cultic, ritual reasons.  I am not aware of any evidence
> that
> > ancient 
> > > >Israel practiced ritual sex for cultic purposes -- or even
> > acknowledged  for 
> > > >example any sympathetic magic of human sex encouraging
agricultural
> 
> > > >fertility.  (And if you say that all the evidence has been
> expurgated
> > from  the Bible, 
> > > >then why would the mention of qedeshot not also be expurgated?)
> > Rather, I 
> > > >would suggest that a qedesha may have been a woman (presumably a
> > slave) 
> > > >dedicated to the sanctuary, just as other items were dedicated to
> the
> > sanctuary.  
> > > >Her income would then have belonged to the sanctuary.   Thus, she
> may
> > have been 
> > > >a prostitute, and a "holy" prostitute in the sense that  her cost
> > went to the 
> > > >upkeep of the holy sanctuary, but not a "temple prostitute"  in
the
> > classic 
> > > >meaning of the term.  (A qadesh -- whether performing  homosexual
> or 
> > > >heterosexual acts -- would similarly have been a sanctuary
> > prostitute but did not engage 
> > > >in sex for cultic purposes.)  This  would be just as deplorable
in
> > the eyes 
> > > >of the Bible as temple prostitution, but  I suggest is more
> > consistent with 
> > > >what we know of the theological  environment.
> > > > 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > The answer to your theory is in what Yigal wrote:
> > > 
> > > >In all of
> > > >these, it refers to something that the Bible regards negatively,
> some
> > > >forbidden practice. Since the root QD$ is usually related to
things
> > > >"sacred", one would assume that here, too, the reference is to
some
> > > >forbidden cultic activity.
> > > >
> > > 
> > > Furthermore, in many of the references QADESH is linked to the 
> > > idolatrous practices of the neighbouring nations. It is clear
that,
> to
> > 
> > > the faithful Israelites who wrote the Bible books, this was
> something 
> > > alien, idolatrous and detestable which had been imported into
> > Israelite 
> > > religion by syncretists. Ritual sex for cultic purposes was indeed
> > never 
> > > a part of normative Yahwism. But the Bible repeatedly tells us
that 
> > > non-normative pagan practices were imported into Yahwism, and
> > condemned 
> > > by the biblical authors. Even without the explicit references, we
> 
> > would 
> > > expect cultic prostitution to be one of these practices. 2 Kings
> 23:7
> > is 
> > > one of the passages in which these practices are condemned, in
that
> > they 
> > > were stamped out by Josiah who is commended as the ideal faithful
> king
> > 
> > > (v.25).
> > > 
> > > So, although we cannot be sure exactly what a QADESH did, we
cannot 
> > > argue that it was not temple prostitution because this was not an 
> > > Israelite practice. Israelite practice in the pre-exilic period
did
> > not 
> > > always match the ideals of the Deuteronomist, and the texts bear
> > witness 
> > > to that in their condemnations. Indeed, at times, such as the
reign
> of
> > 
> > > Manasseh, Israelite practice was much like that of the surrounding

> > > nations, including child sacrifice (2 Kings 21:6), and the use of
> the 
> > > word QADESH in association with such periods suggests that temple 
> > > prostitution was included.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Peter Kirk
> > > peter AT qaya.org (personal)
> > > peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
> > > http://www.qaya.org/
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > 
> > 
> > David Kimbrough
> > San Gabriel
> > 
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> > 
> 
> David Kimbrough
> San Gabriel
> 
> 

David Kimbrough
San Gabriel