Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Yigal Levin" <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>]

----- Original Message -----
From: <david.kimbrough AT charter.net>

> My understand of Pi-Ramesses is that it was built on or
> near the ruins of Aversis, the Hyksos capital, not the
> other way around.  The stie is one of strategic importance
> as both the Hyksos and Ramessid rulers of Egypt realized.

True. Any idea that it was called "pi-Rameses" even before the Hyksos is
rediculous. As Joe Baker had informed us, the pre-Hyksos settlement was
called Rowarty.

>
> Pi-Ramesses does indeed mean "House of Ramesses" so it does
> not seem possible for it to have been built before the
> assension of Ramesses I (Menpehtyre).  However since he
> only ruled for at most two years (1295 - 1294), it is
> unlikely he built Pi-Ramesses.  It is far more likely that
> it was built by his son Seti I (Menmaatre 1394 - 1279) in
> honor of his father.

Or by the long-reigning Rameses II

>
> Again, taking the Gen 47:11 at face value, Joseph could not
> have arrived in Egypt prior to 1280.
>

Why? There are lots of cases in which the Bible clearly uses place-names
current in the time of the reader, not that of the events themselves. For
example, the city of Dan in mentioned twice in the Pentateuch (Gen. 14:14;
Deut. 34:1), when it was only given that name after it's conquest by the
tribe that was descended from Dan son of Jacob (Abraham's great-grandson)
(Josh. 19:47/Judges 18). Whether one believes the Pentateuch to have been
prophetically written by Moses or to have been composed by later redactors,
the reference to Dan is clearly an anachronism.
So why could not Gen. 47:11 mean "in the area we now know as the Land of
Rameses"?

Yigal
>
> > From: "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
> > Date: 2004/05/25 Tue AM 10:19:15 GMT
> > To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Jericho, Ramese
>
>
> > From: "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
> > Date: 2004/05/25 Tue AM 10:19:15 GMT
> > To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Jericho, Rameses and iron
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "kwrandolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
> > > >  > I read a book a while back attributing Beitek
> (sp?) claim that the
> > > >  > site of the Hyksos capital, Avaris, was built on
> the site of an
> > > >  > Egyptian port that had a pre-Hyksos name of pi-
> Rameses.
> > > >
> > > >  On what evidence? Textual? Archaeological? Why would
> a city be called
> > > >  pi-Rameses before the reign of the first king by
> that name? Or does
> > this
> > > >  theory also know of a king Rameses that nobody else
> does?
> > >
> > > Who says that the port had to be named after a pharaoh?
> Especially,
> > > as I remember it, it was a fairly unimportant port
> before the Hyksos
> > > came and made it their capital. The evidence, according
> to the
> > > attribution, was archeological.
> >
> > Assuming that Avaris was indeed built on an earlier
> settlement, how do you
> > know that that settlement was called "Pi-Rameses"? Were
> any pre-Hyksos
> > inscriptions found there that give the name? The name
> "Pi-Rameses" means
> > "House of Rameses". Since there was no god by that name
> (which in itself
> > means "born of Re"), who would it be named for, if not a
> king?
> >
> > > >  The fly in my understanding is
> > > >  > that the traditional dates for the Hyksos is
> earlier than the Exodus,
> > > >  > but then I learned that other writers more learned
> than I also
> > > >  > question the traditional dates, making my
> understanding a
> > possibility.
> > > >
> > > >  ONE MINUTE HERE! You write as if the date of the
> Exodus is fixed and
> > known,
> > > >  while that of the Hyksos is only a "tradition" which
> is still debated.
> > WHile
> > > >  it is true that Egyptologists do still debate
> chronology, the dabate is
> > > >  about decades, not centuries. The Exodus, however,
> is not even proven
> > to
> > > >  have BEEN a historical event, not to mention its
> chronology.
> > >
> > > I have never considered any of the dates set in stone.
> Even if the
> > > dates in Tanakh were 100% accurate, (I accept the
> possibility of
> > > copyist errors) anchoring those dates to modern
> chronology can be off
> > > by decades, depending on who one reads. At least I've
> noticed that
> > > dates differ, depending on who I read.
> > >
> > > So, taking a guess for the time of the Exodus, we get
> ca. 1450 ± 50
> > > years.
> >  This "traditional" date is based on a combination of 1
> Kings 6:1 with the
> > dates for Rehoboam and Solomon that we get from assuming
> that Shishak is
> > Shoshenq I, who invaded in c.925. Just a few days ago, I
> explained that this
> > date is problematic.
> >
> >
> > > Rameses II who lived ca. 1200-900 (he lived almost a
> century)
> > You mean c. 1290-1200. He actually died around 1220.
> >
> > > falls well outside that range. The expulsion of the
> Hyksos, ca.
> > > 1600-1400 falls within that range.
> > Actually around 1570 or 1550. I don't know of any study
> that thinks that the
> > Hyksos lasted as late as 1400. So the Exodus (assuming
> the above date, which
> > I don't) would still be about a century too late.
> >
> > >
> > > My understanding from history is that after the Hyksos
> were expelled,
> > > the native Egyptians tried to destroy all record of the
> Hyksos
> > > presence. So if the Exodus occurred during the Hyksos
> period, it is
> > > very unlikely that any record of that event from the
> Hyksos side
> > > should survive.
> > > >
> > > >  >
> > > >  > If the traditional dates are off by two or more
> centuries as some
> > > >  > have claimed, that would put the beginning of the
> iron age at the
> > > >  > time of King David. Tanakh mentions that David ran
> extensive iron
> > > >  > works.
> > > >
> > > >  Where?
> > >
> > > 2 Samuel 12:31 David took the people of Ammon (which I
> understand to
> > > be a good sized crowd which I understand to number into
> the hundreds,
> > > if not thousands) and put them to work with ore
> crushers and
> > > "refining and smelting iron". That would indicate
> fairly extensive
> > > iron works.
> >
> > The Hebrew does mention the word "barzel", which means
> "iron". But the rest
> > is so unclear, that the translation is anyone's guess.
> I've always read it
> > as meaning that he put the Ammonites through some sort of
> Iron "rack", maybe
> > as a form of torture. B-Hebrew people, let's discuss 2
> Sam. 12:31!
> >
> > In any case, that is hardly proof "that David ran
> extensive iron works".
> > > >
> > > >  That would explain how Israel, a small, weak country
> with a
> > > >  > history of being a vassal nation to its neighbors,
> could suddenly
> > > >  > become a world power under David: he had wrested
> the secret of
> > > >  > tempering iron into steel from the Philistines and
> armed his soldiers
> > > >  > with steel while his enemies were all still armed
> with bronze.
> > > >
> > > >  What evidence is there that the 11th century
> Philistines used iron or
> > steel?
> > > >  And if they did, than David's learning the "secret"
> would make him only
> > as
> > > >  technologically advanced as they were, not more
> advanced.
> > >
> > > Years ago, there was an article in Scientific American
> (my parents
> > > had those lying around the house while I was growing
> up) asking the
> > > question, why iron? There are many disadvantages to it:
> wrought iron
> > > is softer than bronze, more brittle, rusts, harder to
> smelt, and not
> > > as pretty. It was known, even fairly early in the
> bronze age, but not
> > > widely used for those reasons. But if one tempers iron
> into steel
> > > with the addition of the proper impurities, it is
> harder than bronze,
> > > holds a better edge, yet is more flexible, less likely
> to break and
> > > is stronger. So for "iron" to supplant bronze as the
> weapons of
> > > choice, we are talking about tempered steel, not
> wrought iron.
> >
> > That's fine, but again, I ask, where's the archaeological
> evidence that the
> > Philistines or David or anyone else in the Levant in the
> 11th century used
> > steel weapons?
> >
> > >
> > > Even though technologically speaking, David was equal
> to the
> > > Philistines, apparently he had a larger army than they.
> Even so, I
> > > suspect several military terms (e.g. "hoplite") were
> Philistine
> > > origin.
> >
> > Could be. But "hoplite" is Greek, and does not appear in
> the Hebrew Bible.
> >
> > >
> > > Even as early as Joshua, the people of the plain, later
> identified as
> > > Philistines, were mentioned as having weapons of
> "iron".
> >
> > Actually, the refference in Josh 17:16-18 is to "iron
> chariots" - usually
> > understood as iron plated chariots, and referring to the
> Canaanites in the
> > Beth-shean and Jezreel Valleys, not the Philistines on
> the coast.
> >
> >
> >
> > During the
> > > time when Israel was a vassal state to the Philistines,
> Tanakh
> > > mentions that Israelites had to go to Philistine smiths
> to have their
> > > farm implements worked on.
> >
> > Although it actually says that they had no "xara$", which
> could be a worker
> > of wood, stone or any kind of metal. Iron is not
> mentioned in this story.
> >
> > Furthermore, it was repeatedly mentioned
> > > that Israel had no swords (fewer than 10 to the nation)
> so the
> > > picture I get is that the Philistines deliberately
> restricted
> > > knowledge of tempering steel as a state secret for its
> military
> > > advantage.
> > >
> > Generally speaking, the lack of archaeological evidence
> of widespread use of
> > Iron during what is called the "Iron I Period" has led
> many scholars to the
> > conclusion (with which I agree) that most mention of Iron
> in Joshua, Judges
> > and Samuel is anachronistic, and should not be made to
> much of.
> > Let's remember, that the texts we are dealing with were
> written hundreds of
> > years after the events, by authors who no real knowledge
> of archaeology or
> > critical historical methodology.
> >
> >
> > Yigal
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
> >
>
> David Kimbrough
> San Gabriel
>
>
>