Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Yigal Levin" <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>]

Actually, 3 of the 7 times in which HKRTY and HPLTY are mentioned are
parallel versions of David's "cabinet" (2 Sam. 8:18, 20:23 and 1 Chr.
18:17). All the others are from similar contexts. But I agree that it's
unlikely that the "scribal error" occurred independently 7 or even 5 times.
Since HPLTY is never mentioned in any other context, and "HKRTY and HPLTY"
always appear in that order, I assume that this was a technical term or
designation for this particular unit in David's military. Since "kreyty
wepeleyty" (or however it was really pronounced) sort of rhymes, chances are
that that's what this unit was actually called it whatever the
Deuteronomistic Historian used for a source on the days of David. This still
does not lessen the possibility that these were Philistines, that HKRTY and
HPL$TY" became shortened, either in speech or in writing.

Of course HPLTY is not Hebrew. Neither is PL$TY (Philistine). The name
appears as one of the "sea people" in Rameses III's Medinet Habu
inscriptions.

Yes, I really do think that the Philistines were initially happy enough when
their vassal David became king of Judah and continued to fight their
enemies, the house of Saul. I think their shock came when he took over
Jerusalem and became king of (northern)Israel as well as Judah, and that's
when they attacked him. Of course, the whole chronology of the last chapters
of 1 Sam and the first chapters of 2 Sam is problematic.

As for the Philistines' iron weapons, that's a myth that needs to be put to
rest. I also vaguely recall the steel pickaxe, but I also recall that it's
later than 11-10 century. The story in 1 Sam 13:19-21 about the Israelites'
not having any "smiths" because the Philistines wanted to deny them the
ability to make weapons makes good reading, but seems to me to be unlikely.
We do not have any evidence (single pickaxe regarless) of any widescale
ironworking anywhere in the Levant, including in Philistia, in the 12-10
centuries. By the way, the word XR$, "smith", is also used of workers of
bronze, copper, stone and wood, and the word "Barzel", iron, is not
mentioned in the story at all.
The Philistine's main advantage was that of organization. They had a warrior
class and had apparently "inherited" the Egyptian military organization and
the Canaanite urban structure (all five main Philistine cities were former
Canaanite city-states or Egyptian strongholds).

This of course all brings us back to the general question of how much real
historical data can be found in the biblical record, written (presumably)
hundreds of years after the events by writers who were much more concerned
with the message that with the details of Philistine weaponry. While I am in
no way a "minimalist", I must admit that we have no objective criteria for
separating the DH's source material from his own embellishments.

Yigal


----- Original Message -----
From: "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
To: "Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Aegean Ethnic
determinativesonPhilistineguardsofJudean kings in Kings and Samuel?


> Yigal:
>
> Once, yeah, that could be a scribal error, twice, possibly. But seven
times is really stretching things. Especially when there is never an example
of PL$TY being used in that context.
>
> As for David having Philistine blessing when he assumed kingship, I
personally think they were shocked, assuming that David had made enemies of
Judah by his reports of having attacked and pillaged Judah. They showed
their approval by attacking Judah.
>
> An aside concerning the role of "iron" in that period. Years ago, a
Philistine pickax was found in good enough shape that it could be analysed.
It was found that it had been tempered, i.e. steel. Tempered steel is
sharper and harder than bronze, and gave the Philistines an advantage in
battle over their enemies. The description from before and during Saul's
reign is that the Philistines were keeping the craft of temporing steel a
state secret, selling only finished items.
>
> Did David or some of his men acquire the technique of temporing steel
while at Ziklag, or did David's conquests wrest it from the Philistines?
There is at least one hint that David operated extensive "iron" works and it
would explain how David's armies were so successful against numerous
foes-they were armed with steel while their enemies were still largely armed
with bronze. If David and his men acquired the technique of temporing while
at Ziklag, that would explain why the Philistines mounted two apparently
major invasions to reconquer Judah after David became king, i.e. to try to
put the genie back in the bottle.
>
> Under these circumstances, I do not consider HPLTY a native Hebrew word,
but one that was imported with steel weapons. Is it Greek? I think most
likely it was a Philistine term that was loaned to both Hebrew and Greek.
Probably the same with KR<T>Y.
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
>
> > It is often assumed that PLTY "Pelethites" is a scribal error for
PL<$>TY
> > "Philistines", and that KRTY "Cherethites" are "Cretens" (from the
island of
> > Crete, which would fit the Philistines' "Sea Peoples" Aegean origin).
The
> > theory is, that David would have been connected to these people diring
his
> > stay at Ziklag as a mercenary of Achish of Gath, and brought some over
with
> > him when he assumed the kingship of Judah, still with the Philistines'
> > consent.
> >
> > As for the rest of Halpern's theories....
> >
> > Yigal
> >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
> > >
> > >
> > > > Dora:
> > > >
> > > > I noticed that these terms were used exclusively to refer to
soldiers.
> > > What made me suspect that it may refer to classes of professional
soldiers
> > > was the realization that the PLTY is always written with a definite
> > article
> > > prefix in Tanakh, which would have had a pronunciation of "hapeleti".
This
> > > sounds awfully similar to a class of soldiers among the Greeks, who
had
> > > imported a lot of their culture along with their alphabet from Semitic
> > > sources.
> > > >
> > > > The terms, as well as the weaponry, may have been Philistine, but in
the
> > > list of David's top soldiers, almost all of them were native Israelis
(2
> > > Samuel 23).
> > > >
> > > > Karl W. Randolph.
> --
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