Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Yigal Levin <Yigal-Levin AT utc.edu>]

My mistake. Thanks.

Yigal
>
>Good point. Did you mean it to go to the list? I think it came only to me.
>
>Peter Kirk
>peter.r.kirk AT ntlworld.com
>http://web.onetel.net.uk/~peterkirk/
> 
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Yigal Levin [mailto:Yigal-Levin AT utc.edu]
>> Sent: 02 June 2003 16:19
>> 
>> Dear All, believers and non-believers alike:
>> 
>> I personally feel rather intelectually uncomfortable with this kind of
>> discussion. Not that there's anything wrong, Walter, with trying to
>> understand the "nature" behind the biblical stories, but isn't that sort
>> of
>> defeting the whole purpose? For the believer, including (I assume) the
>> people who transmitted the tradition and put it into writing, the whole
>> idea of a miracle is that it is recognizably outside the realm of nature,
>> showing God's control over the very forces of nature that He created. In
>> fact, if quail usually appear in the autumn, then if this happened in the
>> spring (just for the sake of argument) would just emphasize God's control.
>> Whether WE moderns, as individuals, believe that the story actually
>> happened or not is not the point - the point is that God first fed, and
>> then afflicted, His people as a measure of His grace and His justice, and
>> that in doing so by using a means that was outside the regular course of
>> nature, He once more proved His majesty over all creation.
>> 
>> Yigal
>> 
>> 
>> At 03:55 PM 6/2/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>> >Walter, are you now trying to argue that the dates in Exodus 16:1 and
>> >Numbers 10:11 (cf. Exodus 12:1) relate to an autumn new year, so putting
>> the
>> >following visits of quail in the autumn? The problem with this is that it
>> >would put the Exodus and the Passover in the autumn as well. But Clines
>> >assumes that these occurred in the spring, e.g. in section 1 point 8 and
>> >section 3 point 2. So Clines is no support for your attempt to make the
>> text
>> >say what you want it to say, that the quail arrived in the autumn.
>> >
>> >Quail are known to fly north across Sinai in spring having crossed the
>> Red
>> >Sea. This is not as wide as the Mediterranean, but still a long journey
>> for
>> >a small bird, so doubtless they would have alighted somewhere to rest.
>> And
>> >the text as we have it describes an itinerary in southern Sinai. How much
>> is
>> >actually known about this northward migration, and whether and where the
>> >birds ever alight in large numbers in the south? You state that
>> "Exhausted
>> >quail falling from sky occurs ONLY near El Arish and the Northern Sinai's
>> >shoreline according to Professor Kraeling", but the extract you quote
>> from
>> >Kraeling does not say "ONLY". How much did Kraeling know about the
>> northward
>> >migration? How much is known now? Last year I visited the desert east of
>> >Mount Sinai in a 4WD vehicle, but until quite recently this area was
>> >accessible only to the Bedouin. So it is very unlikely that in the 1960s
>> >Kraeling could have made with any confidence the kind of statement you
>> >attribute to him. And more recent research may be unreliable because of
>> the
>> >serious decline in quail numbers.
>> >
>> >Another problem is that according to Grivetti coturnism, poisoning by
>> quail,
>> >is not reported in Egypt or Sinai, but on the south side of the west
>> >Mediterranean in spring and on the north side of the east Mediterranean
>> in
>> >autumn. So it would appear that the quail are poisonous before they cross
>> >that sea, not afterwards.
>> >
>> >Grivetti concludes that the cause of classic coturnism may be caused by
>> the
>> >birds eating Stachys annua. But he also notes: "Tullis (1977) speculated
>> >that, given the observation quail consume seeds from cyanogenic plants
>> >without apparent ill effects, humans effected by quail were poisoned by
>> >cyanide." Cyanide poisoning would be a more likely cause of the nearly
>> >instant deaths recorded in Numbers. Perhaps this particular flock of
>> quail
>> >had (whether as usual for the area and season or exceptionally) been
>> feeding
>> >on such plants which may be common in this locality, perhaps they landed
>> >around the Israelites because they were partly poisoned, and so they
>> would
>> >have caused many deaths. That is, if we need a scientific explanation.
>> >
>> >Also, Walter, you should correct your mention of "South Russia" to
>> >"Georgia", as according to Grivetti that is "where most [ex-]Soviet cases
>> of
>> >coturnism have been reported". It is offensive to the people of Georgia
>> to
>> >have their independent country assumed to be part of Russia.
>> >
>> >Peter Kirk
>> >peter.r.kirk AT ntlworld.com
>> >http://web.onetel.net.uk/~peterkirk/
>> >
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-
>> >> bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Walter R. Mattfeld
>> >> Sent: 02 June 2003 13:47
>> >> To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> >> Subject: [b-hebrew] Autumnal Poisonous Quail and New Year ?
>> >>
>> >> For those interested, I have "updated" my article on Kib`roth-
>> hatta`avah's
>> >> poisonous quail with **a url** to an insight made by Professor David J.
>> A.
>> >> Cline, namely, his observation that Pre-Exilic Israel may have
>observed,
>> >> "originally" an AUTUMN New Year, rather than a Spring New Year. Cline
>> >> investigates various verses in the Primary History (Genesis-Kings), the
>> >> Prophets, and Nehemiah, noting statements suggesting an Autumnal New
>> Year
>> >> was in place. If he is correct, this anomaly would align with Poisonous
>> >> quail alighting in the Sinai, in the Autumn. cf. the newly revised
>> >> http://www.bibleorigins.net/ExodusQuailmiracleKibrothhattaav.html
>> >>
>> >> Regards, Walter
>> >> Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld, M.A. Ed.
>> >> mattfeld12 AT charter.net
>> >>
>> >>
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>> >
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>> >
>> Dr. Yigal Levin
>> Dept. of Philosophy and Religion
>> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
>> 615 McCallie Avenue
>> Chattanooga TN 37403-2598
>> U.S.A.
>
>
>
Dr. Yigal Levin
Dept. of Philosophy and Religion
University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
615 McCallie Avenue
Chattanooga TN 37403-2598
U.S.A.