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Re: [b-hebrew] prov 9:7

From: Yigal Levin <Yigal-Levin AT utc.edu>
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] prov 9:7
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 14:57:49 -0400

Hi Jim,

In this case, I think JPS got it better - the object of "mumo" - "HIS
disfigurement", is the wicked man. I'd put it:
"the one who corrects a scoffer gets reviled,
who show a wicked man his blemish".

Yigal

At 02:41 PM 4/8/2003 -0400, Jim West wrote:
>in the view of listers, is it legitimate to translate "mum" (at the end of
>the verse) as "disfigurement" and hence "beating"?
>
>The way I understand the verse is like this-
>
>"> the one who reproves a wicked man gets a beating!"
>
>any suggestions as to why this may be wrong (if indeed it is wrong).
>
>thanks
>
>Jim
>
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>Jim West, ThD
>
>Biblical Studies Resources
>http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
>
>_______________________________________________
>b-hebrew mailing list
>b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>
>
Dr. Yigal Levin
Dept. of Philosophy and Religion
University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
615 McCallie Avenue
Chattanooga TN 37403-2598
U.S.A.
>From Yigal-Levin AT utc.edu Tue Apr 8 14:59:03 2003
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From: Yigal Levin <Yigal-Levin AT utc.edu>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] prov 9:7
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Sorry, that should have been,
"the one who corrects a scoffer gets reviled,
who shows a wicked man his blemish".

At 02:57 PM 4/8/2003 -0400, Yigal Levin wrote:
>Hi Jim,
>
>In this case, I think JPS got it better - the object of "mumo" - "HIS
>disfigurement", is the wicked man. I'd put it:
>"the one who corrects a scoffer gets reviled,
>who show a wicked man his blemish".
>
>
>Yigal
>
>
>
>At 02:41 PM 4/8/2003 -0400, Jim West wrote:
>>in the view of listers, is it legitimate to translate "mum" (at the end of
>>the verse) as "disfigurement" and hence "beating"?
>>
>>The way I understand the verse is like this-
>>
>>"> the one who reproves a wicked man gets a beating!"
>>
>>any suggestions as to why this may be wrong (if indeed it is wrong).
>>
>>thanks
>>
>>Jim
>>
>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>>Jim West, ThD
>>
>>Biblical Studies Resources
>>http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>b-hebrew mailing list
>>b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>>
>>
>Dr. Yigal Levin
>Dept. of Philosophy and Religion
>University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
>615 McCallie Avenue
>Chattanooga TN 37403-2598
>U.S.A.
>_______________________________________________
>b-hebrew mailing list
>b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>
>
Dr. Yigal Levin
Dept. of Philosophy and Religion
University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
615 McCallie Avenue
Chattanooga TN 37403-2598
U.S.A.
>From brocine AT twcny.rr.com Tue Apr 8 20:47:37 2003
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From: "B. M. Rocine" <brocine AT twcny.rr.com>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] prov 9:7
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 20:47:39 -0400
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Hi Yigal, you wrote:

> In this case, I think JPS got it better - the object of "mumo" - "HIS
> disfigurement", is the wicked man. I'd put it:
> "the one who corrects a scoffer gets reviled,
> who show a wicked man his blemish".
>

Let's have a little fun.

I wonder if your interpretation adequately recognizes the convention of
parallelism in proverbs. At least, familiarity with the convention of
parallelism leads me to taking another look at the verse. For instance, in
your translation, "his blemish" has no parallel element in the first verset.
Also, while your "b" verset does seem to be a degree more concrete and
severe than the first verset, your "b" doesn't probe the heart of the "a,"
which I think is qalon, the reprover's reward. I don't say that yous is
an unlikely interpretation; only that it is a bit uncomfortable.

Let me suggest an alternative:

"one reproving a scorner gets for himself insult;
but one defending a wicked man [gets] his injury."

Of course, "defending" may seem like a stretch, but sometimes the root YKX
is used w ith lamed following to mean "rebuke for..." in the sense of
mediating or judging or advocating on behalf of another (see Gen 24:14, Job
16:21).

The idea of the proverb may be that there is something worse than the lousy
reward for reproving a scorner, namely, advocating for a wicked man, which
will end with t he advocate getting the injury that was meant for the wicked
man.

While my suggestion may also be uncomfortable because of the interpretation
of mokiax, I think it gives due attention to the convention of parallelism
that prevails in proverbs.

Shalom,

Bryan

>
>
> At 02:41 PM 4/8/2003 -0400, Jim West wrote:
> >in the view of listers, is it legitimate to translate "mum" (at the end
of
> >the verse) as "disfigurement" and hence "beating"?
> >
> >The way I understand the verse is like this-
> >
> >"> the one who reproves a wicked man gets a beating!"
> >
> >any suggestions as to why this may be wrong (if indeed it is wrong).
> >
> >thanks
> >
> >Jim

B. M. Rocine
Living Word Church
6101 Court St. Rd.
Syracuse, NY 13206

ph: 315.437.6744
fx: 315.437.6766

Re: [b-hebrew] prov 9:7, Yigal Levin, 04/08/2003