Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Peter Kennelly" <peter AT pkennelly.freeserve.co.uk>]

Please remove my name from the list

Thanks

Peter
>From cisbell AT cox.net  Fri Feb  7 13:50:00 2003
Return-Path: <cisbell AT cox.net>
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from lakemtao05.cox.net (lakemtao05.cox.net [68.1.17.116])
        by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78FA920104
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Fri,  7 Feb 2003 13:50:00 -0500 (EST)
Received: from c78279a ([68.11.135.232]) by lakemtao05.cox.net
          (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with SMTP
          id <20030207185100.OVSW8513.lakemtao05.cox.net@c78279a>;
          Fri, 7 Feb 2003 13:51:00 -0500
Message-ID: <010501c2ced9$f906e940$e8870b44 AT no.cox.net>
From: "Charles David Isbell" <cisbell AT cox.net>
To: "Dave Washburn" <dwashbur AT nyx.net>, <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
References:
        
<NFBBKDEKJBKDMCGCFJNKCEIGELAA.lizfried AT umich.edu><007101c2ce5f$f31a5780$e8870b44 AT no.cox.net>
        <200302062158.24661.dwashbur AT nyx.net>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] [b-hebrew nefarious nefesh
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 12:51:49 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1
Precedence: list
List-Id: A forum on the Hebrew Bible, its language and interpretation
 <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman-2.1/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman-2.1/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 18:50:01 -0000

Let me try one more time.  Dave, I don't want to "get around" what the text
says.  The text I read tells me that an illegal person practicing an banned
profession had no clue that the giant standing in front of her could only be
Saul, which surely makes one wonder how psychic she truly was, non?  When
she was persuaded to ply her trade despite her illegal status, 28.12 tells
us that the woman cried out with a loud voice. What is it that terrifies
her?  It might be the vision of Samuel, but linguistically it is just as
possible, and I believe more contextually plausible, that she is frightened
to realize that she has just plied her trade in the presence of the very
king who had proscribed her entire profession.  See on this point, Alter's
short discussion in THE DAVID STORY, where he suggests that she knows her
visitor is Saul because, "it is only for the king that the prophet Samuel
would have thus risen from the underworld in full-body image" (p. 174).
Either way, it doesn't matter to the next point, which is that after 28.12
says she saw Samuel, Saul asks her what she sees, and her answer is "I have
seen elohim coming up from the earth" (28.13).  The old KJV may have been
the most honest of all in rendering elohim here as "gods."  Modern
translators dance around a bit, as a quick check will show anyone
interested.  But the Hebrew text has the plural form (olim as the verb of
elohim!

Saul then asks about the form [singular] of her envisioned guest, and she
describes Samuel: "an old man cloaked in a coat [me(il] is coming up" [here
the singular (oleh in 28.13].

[1] How an old man wearing a coat coming up out of the ground signifies a
spirit I have no idea. Samuel's mother made him a new coat [me(il] every
year, according to 2.19, and Saul had seized such a coat [me(il] and had
torn it upon learning of his rejection from kingship [kata 15.27].  So the
coat here is an identifying mark of Samuel, clearly linked to the wardrobe
common to his earthly life.

[2] Why the actions of such a woman would be taken as grounds for any modern
theological tenet I have no idea.

[3] What this has to do with nephesh I have no idea.

Be well, and shabbat shalom le-kulkhem,
Charles