Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Francesco Venale" <fvenale AT academicstudies.fsnet.co.uk>]

Dear Sergio,

 

By taking note of Jesus' answer as found in Greek manuscripts we can 
appreciate the problem. I have read the Greek texts of Nestle-Aland and that 
of Westcott and Hort  where Christ's reply was hebdomekontakis hepta, which 
is literally translated "seventy times seven." The difficulty arises with the 
suffix kis added to the word for seventy, hebdomekonta. In Greek this suffix 
is used in two ways. It can be used as a multiple meaning 'times.' So 'seven 
times seven' (7 x 7) would be heptakis hepta. But kis can also be added as a 
suffix to indicate 'times' in the sense of occurrences or instances. Hence, 
the problem is whether  the idiom  used by Jesus, "seventy times seven," 
should be understood as 'seventy times (multiplied by) seven' (= 490, as the 
Revised Version has it ) or 'seventy and seven times (occurrences).' 

 

One reason that the New World Translation  prefers the latter rendering could 
be because of the form of Peter's question. In fact he did not use posas, 
meaning 'how many?' Rather, he asked posakis-'how many times?' Then he 
continued, 'Up to heptakis?' that is, 'Up to seven times?' Logically Jesus 
would respond in accord with Peter's phraseology. He would answer, 'Up to 
seventy-seven times' (meaning "indefinitely", because we cannot imagine that 
anyone would keep count up to 77 times ).

 

The account of Genesis 4:24 lends additional weight to the rendering 
"seventy-seven times". Since God had ruled that anyone killing Cain, the 
murderer, must "suffer vengeance seven times," Lamech, who apparently killed 
a man in self-defense, said: "If seven times Cain is to be avenged, then 
Lamech seventy times and seven."

 

The Hebrew text is exact in showing this as 70 times and 7, or 77 times. But 
what is an equivalent in Greek? Also the LXX uses hebdomekontakis hepta. 
Since this is the precise expression found in Matthew 18:22, it suggests that 
"seventy-seven times" is the way Jesus' reply to Peter should be rendered.



What do you think?



Regards, 



Francesco Venale
London



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Sesamo m. 
  To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org 
  Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 1:05 PM
  Subject: [b-hebrew] ¿77 times?


  Hi all!

  This question has more to do with Greek than with Hebrew, but I'll make it 
  anyway...
  In Mathew 18:22 we are urged to forgive seventy-seven times,
  according to some versions. But the original text says "seventy times 
  seven". The NWT footnote explains that it's been rendered like that in
  harmony with Genesis 4:24.
  Why is it so? Maybe a mistake translating Hebrew into Greek? Did the
  writer or copyist mean "seventy times [and] seven"?

  Thanks
  Sergio





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Hi Rob,

The Ross book, I would say is for a high level college or graduate school
course in BH prose.  I don't even think most graduate students would master
all its detail.  It is a marvelously comprehensive and well-organized
treatment.

I have targeted as wide an audience as possible, trying to make Hebrew
accessible to church groups and the mission school.  I often teach high
school students with it.

My grammar is not as purely inductive as you may have gathered.  While the
concepts are introduced with Biblical texts, ample review and practice
exercises are provided as well.  I will contrast the two books, however, by
saying that while the Ross book is ample in explanation, my book is ample in
experiencing BH text.

Discourse analysis controls my course.  While the approach may be different
than many an instructor is used to, the students find the emphasis on
context and "hearing the text" helpful and rewarding.

The volume is Learning Biblical Hebrew: A New Approach Using Discourse
Analysis (Smyth and Helwys, 2000).  It is available least expensively at
www.helwys.com.

I'm trying to keep this short and objective.  If I may answer any more
questions, don't hesitate to write.

Hoping to help, Bryan


> Could someone compare and comment on Allen Ross' "Introducing Biblical
Hebrew" and an
> inductive grammar by Bryan Rocine which, I have been told, uses the
approach of
> discourse analysis. I think it may be published by Smyth and Helwys, but I
do not have
> a title. I am somewhat familiar with Ross, but not Rocine. Which would be
best for a
> high level high school or college course? Why?
>
> Thanks for any help or comments.
>
> Rob Matlack      united_by_truth AT myrealbox.com
> Minneapolis, KS
> "I can only say that I am nothing but a poor sinner, trusting in Christ
alone for
> salvation"--R. E. Lee
> "It is not our task to secure the triumph of truth, but merely to fight on
its
> behalf."--Blaise Pascal
> ---
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B. M. Rocine
Living Word Church
6101 Court St. Rd.
Syracuse, NY 13206

ph: 315.437.6744
fx: 315.437.6766