Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Peter Kirk" <Peter_R_Kirk AT hotmail.com>]

I wonder if you are both trying too hard to fit this verb into English
categories, either "become" or "be". I guess it works more like the verb
"olmaq" in the language I was working on. The basic meaning is "to
become", but because there is no full verb "to be", only a few clitic
forms, in some tense/aspect/moods "olmaq" is used with a meaning more
like "to be". This got the translators into problems on John 1:1 which
could be read "In the beginning the word became... the word became God"
suggesting that it had previously been something different; the clitic
form would have been more suitable. (Sorry for the NT example which is
to illustrate the use of the word not to comment on the text.) In
Genesis 1:2 at least we avoided that problem by using the clitic form.

Peter Kirk
peter.r.kirk AT ntlworld.com
http://web.onetel.net.uk/~peterkirk/
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: B. M. Rocine [mailto:brocine AT twcny.rr.com]
> Sent: 13 November 2002 10:13
> To: Biblical Hebrew
> Subject: [b-hebrew] Re: BH TMA, Bryan, II
> 
> Hi Andy, you wrote:
> 
> > Bryan, may I pick up a point from your correspondence with Vince?
> >
> > >My first reservation would be in thinking of HYH as a be-verb.  I
don't
> > >think it is.  I think it means "become,happen" so that hayu kotevim
> means
> > >they had become writers.  ...
> >
> > > I think HYH is closer to Gr ginomai than eimi.
> >
> > > On the one hand, vayehi hebel ro`eh tso'n has little to do with
> > > whether Abel is actually doing shepherding during the story time.
It
> is
> > > only saying that he came into that occupation.
> >
> > What do you do with qatal and wayyiqtol forms of HYH such as:
> >
> > Gen 1:2 'the earth HAD BECOME a formless void'?
> > Gen 2:25 'they both HAD BECOME naked'?
> > Exod 24:18 'Moses took forty days and nights to get onto the
mountain'?
> >
> > Forgive the absurd examples, but wouldn't it really be better to see
HYH
> as
> > a stative verb which becomes ingressive in a punctual context?
> >
> > All the best
> >
> > Andy Warren
> 
> On Gen 1:2, What's the problem?  Doesn't fit your cosmology?
> 
> Gen 2:25, I don't see how ingressive works.  Here's ingressive:
"...and
> they started being naked."  Rather, I prefer to read this wayyiqtol as
> making concrete for us readers what we may have guessed from the
creation
> account, that the Lord made them naked, something like, "and they came
> into
> being naked" or "they came about naked" or "they materialized naked."
> 
> Exo 24:18  I don't know how your above translation came from anything
I
> said.  Moses was a "happenin'" on the mountain for forty days and
nights.
> I
> say this only half-jokingly.  We sometimes say around here that
someone is
> a
> "happenin' guy" if he's very active.     How does this tranlsation
strike
> you: "Moses stayed..." or "Moses continued..."  I think we can try to
> preserve HYH's meaning of *happen* or *become* or *come into being* in
> translation in a great number of ways.  An English verb of movement is
> often
> useful.
> 
> I can add another.  2 Sam 12:30 speaking of a crown: vattehiy `al
ro'sh
> david   "...it wound up on David's head."
> 
> Or 2 Sam 13:20.   ha'aminon 'axik hayah `imak  is a more suitable
> construction for the loaded question than ha'aminon 'axik `imak
(without
> hayah) would be.  "Did Amnon your brother take place with you?"
> 
> Shalom,
> Bryan
> 
> B. M. Rocine
> Living Word Church
> 6101 Court St. Rd.
> Syracuse, NY 13206
> 
> ph: 315.437.6744
> fx: 315.437.6766
>