Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Christine Bass <christinebass AT home.com>]

> 
> >I could just as well have brought up
> >Jonah whose 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of a whale
> >were referenced by another Jew who claimed he was going to be resurrected,


> (This is conjecture not derived from the text.)

 
Ian, this is taken directly from the text:


 "Now The Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was 
in the
  belly of the fish three days and three nights." (Jonah 1:17)



   (MATTH 12:38)  Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, 
  saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 
   (MATTH 12:39)  But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous 
  generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be 
  given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 
   (MATTH 12:40)  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's 
  belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights 
  in the heart of the earth. 


> 
> >or perhaps I could have mentioned King Saul who apparently believed
> >in life after death since he had the prophet Samuel called up from the
> dead,


 
> (Again not supportable from the text. You should read the text, not what
> other people conjecture about it.)



Okay, Ian, I will read the text myself. And I will include it here so you can 
read
it too. 


   (1 SAM 28:3)  Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and 
  buried him in Ramah, [...]

   (1 SAM 28:8)  And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he 
  went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by 
  night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the 
  familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto 
  thee. 

   (1 SAM 28:11)  Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And 
he 
  said, Bring me up Samuel. 
   (1 SAM 28:12)  And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: 
  and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived 
  me? for thou art Saul. 
   (1 SAM 28:13)  And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest 
  thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out 
  of the earth. 
   (1 SAM 28:14)  And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An 
old 
  man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul 
  perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to 
  the ground, and bowed himself. 
   (1 SAM 28:15)  And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to 
bring 
  me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the 
  Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, 
  and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: 
  therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto 
  me what I shall do. 
   (1 SAM 28:16)  Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, 
seeing 
  the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 
   (1 SAM 28:17)  And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the 
LORD 
  hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy 
  neighbour, even to David: 
   (1 SAM 28:18)  Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor 
  executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the 
  LORD done this thing unto thee this day. 
   (1 SAM 28:19)  Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into 
the 
  hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons 
  be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel 
  into the hand of the Philistines. 
   (1 SAM 28:20)  Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was 
  sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel:   


> 
> >or even that other Jew with a vision, John, who wrote of seeing
> >resurrections of great numbers of people and life after death
> >in a manner that coincides with Daniel's vision.


> 
> Is this other than empty rhetoric, Christine?


Empty rhetoric, Ian? Read the text for yourself. 



> Try this: can you show any
> references in Hebrew literature from after the Hellenistic crisis to the
> start of the Christian literary era which touch on resurrection?


References in Hebrew literature which touch on resurrection.....alright, 
I can do that.


  11:43)  And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, 
  Lazarus, come forth. 
   (JOHN 
  11:44)  And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with 
  graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. 
  Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go. 
   


===========================

   (MATTH 27:49)  The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come 
to 
  save him. 
   (MATTH 27:50)  Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded 
up 
  the ghost. 
   (MATTH 27:51)  And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from 
the 
  top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks 
  rent; 
   (MATTH 27:52)  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints 
  which slept arose, 
   (MATTH 27:53)  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went 
  into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 

================


 
   (1 THE 4:13)  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, 
concerning 
  them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others 
  which have no hope. 
   (1 THE 4:14)  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so 
them 
  also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 
   (1 THE 4:15)  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we 
  which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall 
  not prevent them which are asleep. 
   (1 THE 4:16)  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, 
  with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: 
  and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 
   (1 THE 4:17)  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up 
together 
  with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so 
  shall we ever be with the Lord.  

======================


> 
> >As I recall a major point of debate between the Pharisees and the Sadducees
> >was just this topic, resurrection from the dead and everlasting life.

> 
> (Who were these Sadducees and when was this debate?)



  23:6)  But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and 
  the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and 
  brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope 
  and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. 
   (ACTS 
  23:7)  And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the 
  Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided. 
   (ACTS 
  23:8)  For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither 
  angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both. 


 

> There are three relatively well-dated texts to the Hellenistic crisis which
> deal with resurrection.


Ian, curious minds want to know----what texts???? What do they say about
resurrection?



> There was a clear context for the nurturing of such
> an idea with the dire circumstances of an apparently unwinnable war against
> immense odds, circumstances needing the miraculous. It is analogous to the
> desperate situation of the American Indians who put on the ghost shirts.


What are you intending to imply about the text of Daniel? Could you be more
explicit?


> The
> Dead Sea Scrolls which were mainly written after this period shows little
> interest in resurrection. I think therefore the notion of resurrection in
> Daniel is another indicator of its historical context.


Interesting conjecture......


> 
> Ian
> 
> 
> >Oddly enough, on the "ancient history"
> >site you referenced there is a great deal written on resurrection from the
> >dead. (From a literal point of view.)