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  • From: "Peter Kirk"<peter_kirk AT sil.org>
  • To: <b-hebrew AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
  • Subject: Re: Dating Joseph
  • Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 12:02:39 -0500


Well, if you are quoting all of Redford's evidence on this 20% issue
the evidence does not support his conclusions. The fact that 20% went
to Pharaoh in the 6th century in no way implies that this was not the
case at an earlier period. Indeed, given the conservatism of Egyptian
society it was very likely a law that went back to millennia earlier,
or it could quite easily have been introduced by a 2nd millennium
Joseph.

By the same reasoning you would have to say that Genesis 14:20 was
written in 20th century America, because it is known that tithing was
a widespread practice in 20th century American churches. Sorry, such
reasoning does not work.

As for the titles, the most you can prove by this method is a late
editing of the text to replace obsolete titles with current ones. In
fact your word for "overseers" in Gen. 41:34 [P.:QIDIYM] is from a
perfectly good Hebrew root, and could quite easily be an anachronistic
repointing of P.:QUDIYM "appointed ones, officers" as in Numbers
31:14,48, 2 Kings 11:15 etc.

Meanwhile it is worth reviewing the evidence which David Rohl
presents, that Joseph was vizier during the late 12th dynasty, and his
palace and tomb were found by Bietak at Tell ed-Daba. Rohl links
Joseph's administrative reforms and the decline of local landowners
noted in Genesis 47:20 with the fact that "Some time in the reign of
Senuseret III the grand tombs of the nomarchs ceased to be built in
Middle Egypt... signalling the diminution of the authority of a
semi-independent nobility and the return of political control to the
kingship" (" A Test of Time" p.342).

Peter Kirk


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Dating Joseph
Author: <mattfeld AT mail.pjsnet.com> at Internet
Date: 07/02/2000 06:49


Mr. Washburn has pointed out that perhaps the statement that Joseph was
responsible for setting aside 20% of the harvest for Pharaoh might be a
"historical marker" for dating Genesis, and wondered if any research has
been done on this subject.

The answer is yes. But I am afraid that Conservative scholarship is going to
be dismayed about the results of the investigation. The Egyptologist who did
the research on the Joseph story concluded that it must have been created in
the Post-Exilic period, sometime after 525 BCE, after Egypt had been
captured by Cambyses of Persia.

Briefly quoted are Redford's observations:

"In detail, what does the author know (or think he knows) about these matters
? To him Pharaoh is the owner of all the land of Egypt, except temple land,
as well as all the livestock; the inhabitants are his slaves, while the
priests were his salaried employees. At planting seed is handed out to the
peasants, and at harvest one-fifth of the produce goes to Pharaoh...In the
sixth century we have the explicit statement that...the great temples were
usually not taxed. With respect to the 20 % that went to Pharaoh, it is
possible to elicit this rate elsewhere in the tax structure of Late Period
Egypt; but Papyrus Rylands IX yields unequivocal evidence. There it is stated
that, in the Saite period the temple income (in edibles) was alloted as
salaries to the four phyles of priests into which the temple staff was
divided, 20 % per phyle (Papyrus Rylands IX, 13, 8). The remaining 20 % was
called the "Portion of Pharaoh" (Papyrus Rylands IX, 3, 17-18; 15, 3-4) and
could be disposed of at Pharaoh's discretion." (pp.425-6, Professor Donald B.
Redford, Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times, Princeton, New Jersey,
Princeton University Press, 1992, ISBN 0-691-00086-7 )

Redford calls attention to details in the Joseph story betraying it is a
Persian Period composition:

"On the other hand, some descriptions have direct application to Egypt. the
term 'overseers' in Genesis 41:34, the officials whom Joseph advises to
appoint, is an Aramaic title ubiquitious in the Egyptian administration
during the Persian period (525-410 BC). The word saris of Genesis 37:36,
rendered variously 'officer' or 'eunuch,' has long been recognized to be a
rendering of sa resi, the common Akkadian title of the Assyrian
administration. Whether in fact it here means 'eunuch' is besides the point.
The title seems only to be found in the Persian administration of Egypt,
where it is applied to high-ranking governors (cf. Papyrus Rylands IX passim,
where the srs is the term given to the Persian provincial governors)."
(p.425, Redford)

All the best,

Walter

Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld
Walldorf by Heidelberg
Baden-Wurttemburg
Germany


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  • Dating Joseph, Walter Mattfeld, 02/07/2000
    • <Possible follow-up(s)>
    • Re: Dating Joseph, kdlitwak, 02/07/2000
    • Re: Dating Joseph, Peter Kirk, 02/07/2000

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