Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Jonathan Bailey <jonathan.bailey AT gmx.de>]

Jack,

An informative and entertaining response to my questions. Thanks. And though 
I am
more willing to consider certain issues of scripture "known territory" than 
you are, I
agree with your approach that you spoke of at the end of your response to my 
mail.




"If there are many wisemen in a city, this means that the city will soon 
fall."
Babylonian proverb

Jonathan Bailey
Hochschule für Jüdische Studien
Heidelberg
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Column/9707/index.html
---------- Original Message ----------



>Jonathan Bailey wrote:

>> Well, since nobody liked my post about doublets in paleo-Hebrew 
>> inscriptions
>> (probably the only Hebrew language post that I wrote in quite some time), 
>> I thought
I
>> would join in on this off-topic discussion.
>>
>> Could it be that the Hebrews were not the Hyskos? Perhaps the Pharaoh that
made
>> Joseph ruler was a Hyskos king who was expelled and was replaced by 
>> Mitsraimite
>> Egyptian Pharaoh who then began to oppress all of the semitic peoples that 
>> had
been
>> invited down by Joseph's friendly patron. The Hebrews, being one of the 
>> wealthiest
>> and most populous of the semitic groups in the area thanks to Joseph, were
probably
>> not interested in leaving until well after the Hyskos expulsion as their 
>> fortunes
>> continued to wane and their social situation took a few turns for the 
>> worse.

>I think that it is possible that (assuming an historical) Joseph was vizier 
>under
>a Semitic (but not necessarily Hebrew) Hyksos Pharoah.  The chronology
>of the Joseph story would appear to dictate Aussare Apepi.  It is interesting
>(as long as we are speculating for fun) that a contemporary dynastic clan 
>chieftain
>is "Yakobam."  In this scenario, the expulsion of the Hyksos would not be the
>historical foundation for the Exodus but instead set the stage for it.  It
>would be understandable why the returning Egyptian rule would not be
>sympathetic to the Hebrew presence that developed under the Hyksos.
>Given time for the dust of  reformation to settle, the Tuthmosids may have
>set their plate for retribution against the remaining "friends of the Hyksos"
>Hebrews.  Since the Biblical account places the Exoodus during the time
>of Thutmosis the Great, some have speculated that none other than
>Hatshepsut was "Pharoah's daughter."  Moses is half of an Egyptian name
>that seems to conform to the 18th Dynasty.  This is the stuff of which
>novels are written.

>I do think the attribution of whatever lies behind the Exodus to the time
>of Ramses II has no foundation other than the Hyksos capital of
>Avaris having been renamed after Ramses by the time the story was set
>to writing....the same type of anachronism as Abraham's "Ur of the
>Chaldees."

>> Now I am not using this scenario to support a humanistic 13th century 
>> dating for
the
>> Exodus. I just also notice that Dr. Mattfield is incorrect in asserting a 
>> 1446+
masoretic
>> date for the Exodus. 1Ki 6:1 is not talking about 480 years from Solomon 
>> to the
>> entering in of, or conquering of Canaan. It is stating 480 years from the 
>> exiting of
>> Egypt to the building of the temple. Therefore, wandering, Joshua, etc. 
>> are not
taken
>> into account. So we have Exodus at 1446, wandering until 1406, etc.

>That appears to have the captivity under Tuthmosis III (the Great) and the 
>Exodus
>under Amenhotep II

>> So a 15th century Exodus works well with a 16th century Hyskos expulsion
according
>> to the scenario I painted above. Now I am not at all versed in really any 
>> area of
>> Egyptology, especially chronology, so would appreciate any criticisms of 
>> the idea
that
>> one may have. I am also looking for introductions to the field of 
>> chronology in
general,
>> particularly Egyptian chronology, that have been produced by unclouded 
>> scientific
>> minds.

>If Apepi was the Hyksos Pharaoh of Joseph, this would place Joseph around
1610ish.
>Conventional dating places the expulsion of the Hyksos by Amoses in the 
>1540ish
>range so if there was a Hebrew vizier under Apepi, I can see Thutmosis I 
>being a
>Pharaoh "who knew not Joseph."

>> To illustrate what I mean by unclouded, let me give 2 examples. I was 
>> talking about
>> this theme with a friend of mine who is up on his Egyptian history and he 
>> says the
>> Exodus must have been after the 13th century because we have Egyptian 
>> records
of
>> 2 egyptian cities cities being built by Hebrews in the 13th century. Now he
overlooked
>> the possibility that not all the Hebrews left in the Exodus. This is a 
>> typical biblical
>> pattern. Not all the Hebrews warded off the angel of death with blood on 
>> the door.
Not
>> all the Hebrews left exile in Babylon. Also, he did not conceive of the 
>> possibility that
>> some (if not most) of the Hebrews got scared and went back to Egypt. Also a
biblical
>> theme. Check Jeremiah. Anyway, I am trying to find histories and 
>> chronological
data
>> by people who know that if you find an ear of corn in a field it means you 
>> found a
field
>> with an ear of corn in it, not necessarily a corn field. Such 
>> understanding seems to
>> escape most people, it seems.

>The record of Hebrews building "Per-Ramses" could be because that was the 
>name
>of the city to a scribe that copied the text, not the name of the city 
>(Avaris) during
>the actual captivity.  Otherwise there is nothing to indicate Ramses was the 
>pharaoh
>of Moses.

>> "If there are many wisemen in a city, this means that the city will soon 
>> fall."
>> Babylonian proverb

>We may never be able to get to the bottom of this to the satisfaction of the
>archaeological/historical-critical method, but it is fun to play with the
>historical context and speculate.

>Jack

>--
>______________________________________________

>taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon

>Jack Kilmon
>jkilmon AT historian.net

>http://www.historian.net

>sharing a meal for free.
>http://www.thehungersite.com/






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