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  • From: peter_kirk AT SIL.ORG
  • To: b-hebrew AT franklin.oit.unc.edu
  • Subject: Re: in favour of SVO, surface and underlying ;-)
  • Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 01:21:27 -0400


Dear Vince,

Does your statistical study of qatal deal with the problem of weqatal
which I mentioned to Dave?

For clarification, perhaps someone can give us the statistics for the
following types of clause (where X and Y are any constituents other
than verbs and conjunctions, Y may be null but X may not)

A = # qatal + Y
B = # X + qatal + Y
C = # we- + qatal + Y
D = # we- + X + qatal + Y
E = # other conjunction + qatal + Y
F = # other conjunction + X + qatal + Y
G = # wayyiqtol + Y

The problem comes with count C, because we- + qatal is equivalent to
weqatal and has a semantic shift. Presumably your statistical
argument, if it excludes weqatal forms as I suspect, is that (B + D +
F) > (A + E), i.e. the forms with an X predominate. But a better set
of statistics (at least for those who separate semantics from syntax)
would include set C; or if people are concerned for correct weighting
between discourse types they might want to substitute G for C as
wayyiqtol is (simplistically) the semantic equivalent of we- plus
qatal. How do the statistics look now? Would I be guessing right to
say that (A + C + E) > (B + D + F) ? I am sure (A + G + E) would be
even greater. The other fair comparison would be (A + E) with (B + F),
or if you prefer to study subordinate clauses perhaps simply E with F.
But the numbers may then become too small for statistical
significance.

Your examples may be helpful. But again we have the missing we-. Which
is more basic, unmarked, statistically common etc:
(1) lakkohanim yihyu
or
(3) welakkohanim yihyu
? If the latter, as I suspect, the true comparison is not with:
(2) yihyu lakkohanim
but with
(4) weyihyu lakkohanim
or even
(5) wayyihyu lakkohanim
This could give a rather different complexion to the argument.

I am sure you and others who have studied this subject in detail have
answered this argument somehow. As I don't have access to your
unpublished dissertation, I would be interested in a summary of your
answer.

Peter Kirk


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: in favour of SVO, surface and underlying ;-)
Author: decaen AT chass.utoronto.ca at internet
Date: 12/05/1999 12:42


dear dave, peter, doug, et al,

just to add somewhat to what dave was trying to say...

<snip>
based on statistical studies, using the above definition, i obtain SVO
as a basic "surface" word order for the purposes of typological
studies.
underlying order would be theory-internal, but I argued in my
unpublished dissertation that SVO is also basic. see ch5 especially.
__________________________________________________________

<snip>

the observation was the basis of my doctoral work, the basic point
that tends to be obscured in the obsession to deal with aspect. the
observation can be stated with an example.

(1) lakkohanim yihyu
(2) yihyu lakkohanim

according to VSO theory (2) should be unmarked in every way; (1) has
"emphasis" on priests.
in fact, as has been observed, (1) is basic: they belong to the
priests; (2) is highly marked and modal: let them belong to the
priests.

with such minimal pairs, we must argue that (2) represents a
transformation over (1) to encode mood.

from this it is easy to argue that wayyiqtol, etc, is also derived by
verb movement. what is encoded by movement is an open question: but
i'm talking about the syntax here.

QED
________________________________

cheers!
V
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Dr Vincent DeCaen <decaen AT chass.utoronto.ca>
c/o Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations, 4 Bancroft Ave., 2d floor
University of Toronto, Toronto ON, CANADA, M5S 1A1

Hebrew Syntax Encoding Initiative, www.chass.utoronto.ca/~decaen/hsei/
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Where once the student was taught that the unexamined life was not
worth living, he is now taught that the profitably lived life is not
worth examining. --Benjamin Barber

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