Biblical Hebrew Forum

[GregStffrd AT aol.com]

In a message dated 12/26/98 12:50:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,
ronning AT ilink.nis.za writes:

<< Greg Stafford wrote:
 >The implied predicate in Jesus' other EGW EIMI sayings (both in the
Synoptics >and in the Fourth Gospel) is almost always "Messiah" or "Son of
Man" (see, for >example, John 4:26; 8:28; Mark 14:62 [Luke 22:70]; compare
Mark 13:6 [Luke >21:8] with Matthew 24:5), and there may be a similar
predicate implied in John >8:58.
 
^^^^ I'm in general agreement with this but I think there is a problem with
 "Son of Man/Messiah" as predicate in John 8:58 - Jesus is not "Son of
 Man" until he takes on human nature. ^^^^^


Dear John:

Yes, and no. He is not officially anointed as the Messiah until his sojourn in
the flesh, but prophetically he was known as the Messiah from at least the
time of Genesis 3:15. Then there is the fact that in the Judaism prior to,
during, and after the first century CE it was thought that the name of the
Messiah was preexistent. That is, it was predetermined by God before the
Messiah actually appeared. Thus, the Targum of Micah 5:1 (2) reads, 

"And you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, you who were too small to be numbered among
the thousands of the house of Judah, from you shall come forth before me the
anointed One, to exercise dominion over Israel, he whose name was mentioned
from of old, from ancient times."---Kevin J. Cathcart and Robert P. Gordon,
The Aramaic Bible, vol. 14, The Targum of the Minor Prophets (Wilmington,
Delaware: Michael Glazier, 1989), 122.

I pointed out several things in Jesus' discussion with the Jews in the context
of John 8:58 that seem to support the view that we have _another_ use of a
Messianic EGW EIMI. Since you did not reproduce them above, could you please
comment on them next time?


^^^^ Two things are striking about egw
 eimi in John 8:58 - one is that there is no predicate (when there is no
 predicate it leads to the question "*Who* are you?" as in John 8:25).^^^


But, John, the above question is in response, not to John 8:58 (which comes
later in the dialogue) but to earlier statements made by Jesus, which he
believed made it clear just who he was. The predicates for the EGW EIMI saying
of 8:24 (and 8:28) are so clear that Jesus replies, with perhaps a bit of
frustration, saying, THN ARCHN hOTI KAI LALW hUMIN; compare 8:43. 

Also, the fact that the Jews did _not_ know who Jesus claimed to be shows that
they did not see in his use of EGW EIMI/ani' hu, in John 8:24 and 8:28, a
claim to be God. It is only when he uses the expression a third time, with
strong Messianic overtones, and where he claims priority to the Jews'
"father," Abraham, that they become enraged and seek to kill him.

Regarding John 8:24, which gives rise to the question in 8:25, to which you
refer, surely we can see how Jesus would tell the Jews that they would die in
their sins if they refused to believe that he was the Messiah. Even if his
enemies here failed to recognize those things foretold in the Bible about the
Messiah, Jesus certainly knew them: "By means of his knowledge the righteous
one, my servant, will bring a righteous standing to many people; and their
errors he himself will bear. . . . and he himself carried the very sin of many
people, and for the transgressors he proceeded to interpose."---Isa 53:11-12.

Also, in Daniel 9:24-25 we have a prophecy about the time when "Messiah the
Leader" would appear, which is directly linked with the finishing off of "sin"
and the "atonement for error." Thus, for the Jews to reject Jesus, the Messiah
who would 'carry their sin,' would assure them of "death through sin."---Ro
5:12.

Edwin D. Freed, "EGO EIMI in John VIII. 24 in the Light of Its Context and
Jewish Messianic Belief," JTS 33 (1982), page 164, remarks: "When Jesus thrice
stated that the Jews would die in their sins unless they believed that ego
eimi, he was doing only what the Messiah was expected to do-reprove sinners." 

The context, then, in which the phrase ego eimi is used, favors seeing another
reference to Jesus as the Christ, the sent forth one of God. Godet rightly
points out that the "understood predicate was certainly the Christ."---F.
Godet, Commentary on the Gospel of John, vol. 2 (New York: Funk & Wagnalls,
1886), 98. 


 
^^^ Secondly, he does not say, "before Abraham existed, I was" (which is
 what I assume he would say if he merely wanted to state his
 pre-existence in agreement with Micah 5:1/2).  Thus there is use of a
 "present" construction (I am he), with past time. ^^^^


That is precisely the point, and that is why he used the present EIMI and not
the simple past HN. Jesus is _not_ merely stating his preexistence, but
highlighting his continual existence from before Abraham's birth, to the
present moment of his speaking with the Jews in John 8:58. This is, as you
rightly state, in agreement with Micah 5:2, which is clearly a Messianic
passage. 

The Greek idiom that denotes duration from a past time to the present
requires, in most cases, a past expression with a present verb. This is what
we find in John 8:58, and it fits perfectly with the context, and with the
implications of his other EGW EIMI sayings. 

 
 ^^^^ In Isa 43:13 Yhwh says "From the day (miyyom), I am he," mixing past and
 present, and in 46:4 Yhwh says "even in your old age, I am he" mixing
 the "present" (I am he) with a future reference.  In John 8:58 Jesus mixes
 the present with the past.  Perhaps then the reason there is no
 predicate in John 8:58 is that the answer to the question "Who are you?" is
"I am the one who says `I am he'" in the Hebrew Scriptures; i.e. Yhwh. ^^^


Again, the question "Who are you?" is asked throughout the discourse, even
though Jesus revealed himself several times, even pointing to their lack of
understanding and acceptance of him. However, this question could and I
believe is answered by the implied/directly stated predicates in 8:24, 28, 58,
but the context has to tell us what those predicates are, and the same is true
with the 'ani hu sayings of Isaiah. 

However, when you analyze the context of these 'ani hu sayings you will find
that the predicates to which hu refers are entirely different from those
implied/directly stated predicates in John 8. Of course, John uses EGW EIMI in
a similar sense in John 9:9, namely, with a predicate ("the one born blind")
from the context. 

Regarding the reference to Isaiah 43:13, I am not sure that we have, in
Hebrew, a past with a present expression. Jehovah's words may simply mean,
"From (to)day
I am he." The hu refers back to the 'el of verse 12. 

But, in the LXX the use of ARCHN may be taken together with EGW KURIOS hO QEOS
to mean that Jehovah was their God, and not the idols mentioned in the
context, from "the beginning," which is context-dependent and likely refers to
the beginning of his relationship with Israel. 

So there is a parallel of sorts in that we have Jehovah stating his existence
as God "from the day/beginning." But the predicate to which hu refers is clear
and unmistakable, as it is in EGW EIMI sayings of John 8 and 9.

Regards,

Greg Stafford