[permaculture] Is This Aquaponics Then?

Steve Hart stevenlawrencehart at gmail.com
Sun Jun 7 18:28:16 EDT 2015


YEAH Giddaye Christopher Nesbitt et al. Excuse the delayed response..been
outa netzone in rural spaces.

Its a great site here that LL moderates and freely allows all conversation
un-edited. This is very valuable in itself. Its also great to hear people
vent their spleen, emotions and heart felt opinions. It is also valuable to
add to the debate for intellectual and professional rigour.

It seems it is also a site to offer vitriol, abuse and personal attack. I
could very easily do that too for I am equally equipped to do such as the
best. But perhaps, as said by many this shows poor and rather weak
intellect. So I will try to refrain from such retaliation.

It is great to see in this debate of the whole subject of whether
Hydroponics and Aquaponics has a place at all in Permaulture has expanded
to recognise the broader examples as is found in chinampas and some
integrated  pond systems through SE Asia. But the original debate is about
H&A. My argument, like it or lump it is about the health value of such
produce fro H&A. As Chris rightly announces I have regurgitated this debate
after see a report of health effects of food eaten in prawn farms. LL seems
to be able to understand my issues but seemingly thats where the
comprehension stops. So I'm not sure I have the capacity or temperament or
patience to elaborate on my issues for those that clearly do not understand
that there exist critical health issues in artificial foods like that which
we do get as produce from H&A.

As much as I support Jason's views " It is better than fried chips and
sodies from the corner store though." Do we in our designs and
constructions and our consultations of advice want to offer a slightly less
healthier option. What we do by promoting H&A is promoting poor health. Our
challenge is obviously greater to find how food can be grown in true earth
systems not artificial systems. We know that composts of all nature of
recipes assist in stimulating natures dynamics and it is in my opinion that
this is where we need to travel in designing and building better solutions.
I have worked in "Food Deserts" and a number of other devastated 3rd world
environments so I am aware of the challenges. But lets not fall for a false
and simply answer which is not much better than fried chips and sodies from
the corner
store.
​...We need to challenge our selves or otherwise do a refresher PDC from a
reputable teacher and get the story right​ as Michael Elvin alludes to
getting the interpretation quite wrong.

As I have also mentioned in previous posts as Chris also reacts to. We have
over the past 15 years seen a severe weakening in the teaching quality of
PDC's perhaps this is another reason for some of the short sightedness in
the retort here. ..Steve Hart

On 6 June 2015 at 02:18, christopher nesbitt <christopher.nesbitt at mmrfbz.org
> wrote:

> Steve has done this before, this rigid, inflexible railing up agains the
> “weakening” of permaculture”, on the same subject, and Toby, twice, has
> answered it so completely, educating him on the subject so totally, that I
> am not going to bother to reply, other than to say that there is a place
> for aquaponics in a field as broad as permaculture.
>
> As with most things in permaculture, if we consider the variables,
> aquaponics has a place, depending on the problems you seek to address.
> Adhering to a rigid orthodoxy, one that is under informed, that refuses to
> see that, in many places, aquaponics has a very valid and very real set of
> solutions, seems to me, to sort of miss the point of a design science where
> most answers to most questions should be prefaced with: “…it depends…”
>
> If you don’t like aquaponics, don’t practice it. Period. Stop attacking
> solutions to problems that are not of where you live. Many people are using
> aquaponics to provide solutions to problems unique to their location. And,
> please, stop invoking your past association with Bill Mollison to add
> weight to your opinion. It devalues what you say by making you look like
> you need the added persona of Bill, himself, to bolster your weak argument.
> _____________________________
> Christopher Nesbitt
>
> Maya Mountain Research Farm
> San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
> PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
> BELIZE,
> Central America
>
> Country code 501-630-4386
>
> www.mmrfbz.org <applewebdata://936E85E2-89AB-4B94-9E4F-EEF1A057AA90/
> www.mmrfbz.org>
> www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm <
> http://www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 3, 2015, at 2:40 PM, Ben Martin Horst <ben.martinhorst at gmail.com
> <mailto:ben.martinhorst at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Steve,
> > To me it is problematic to dismiss techniques like aquaponics as "not
> > connected to the earth." While I have a vague sense as to what you mean,
> > one could easily make the same statement about all agricultural
> techniques.
> > It isn't a precise enough criticism for me.
> >
> > Further, I have to admit that I cringe to hear esoteric terms like
> "etheric
> > and astral energies" thrown about as if they are factual categories.
> While
> > I firmly believe that there are aspects of our universe that cannot be
> > explained within a rationalist framework, I simply do not see how it
> > furthers discussions about permacultural practice to throw around New Age
> > terms. It makes no more sense to me than it would if someone were to talk
> > about the intervention of saints and angels in permaculture practice. I
> > firmly support anybody's right to their own religious beliefs, but to
> throw
> > faith-based terminology around as something that contributes meaningfully
> > to broader permaculture discourse seems misguided.
> >
> > -Ben
> > On May 31, 2015 10:16 PM, "Steve Hart" <stevenlawrencehart at gmail.com
> <mailto:stevenlawrencehart at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Jason..great to hear spring has been goood. My argument all along
> with
> >> aquaponics and hydroponics similarly is that it is still an artificial
> >> system if it is not connected directly to the earth. This direct
> connection
> >> is critical for us to receive many if not all the nutrients our body
> needs
> >> for good if not optimal health. It is within dimensions greater than
> just
> >> simple food elements of vitamins sugars and minerals it is in micro
> >> nutrients etheric and astral energies as well as electromagnetic
> values. If
> >> the body is missing out on these which are most often in micro
> measurement
> >> our health falters.
> >>
> >> This connection with the earth and natural water can not be imitated.
> This
> >> also applies to the multitude of foods that we eat that live in water.
> eg
> >> watercress fish etc etc etc.
> >>
> >> Therefore it is also difficult for me to consider any value in any such
> >> systems no matter where they are built, desert, damaged land, roof tops
> >> wherever, the same applies. Perhaps for the argument we jump on the
> "Beyond
> >> Organic" bandwagon and call this "Beyond Permaculture". But, having done
> >> several courses with Mollison and other learned first generation
> pioneers
> >> I'm sure that such view is clearly inherent within Mollison/Holmgren
> >> Permaculture so there is no need to go beyond. It is inherent..Steve
> Hart
> >>
> >> On 1 June 2015 at 16:57, Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt at gmail.com
> <mailto:jasongerhardt at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I know I'm late to this...been a busy spring, but anyone looking for a
> >> good
> >>> example of aquaponics can go to the link below. Flourish Farm is one of
> >> the
> >>> microenterprises within the Growhaus in Denver. It's the most
> productive
> >>> and flourishing aquaponics system I've ever seen. I see it all times of
> >> the
> >>> year and it totally out produces indoor soil growing, and the
> neighboring
> >>> hydroponics system (not the same as aquaponics). Best of all, their
> >>> criteria for using the technique is right...food desert...polluted
> >>> soils...repurposed building infrastructure. While it is not a fully
> >> closed
> >>> loop system, there are some loops being closed, which is the purpose of
> >>> closing loops...to provide a means to understand energy flow. The
> >>> educational yield of that alone is likely the greatest product of the
> >>> system, which makes it an open system, which is infinitely more
> >>> regenerative than anything described as closed.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.coloradoaquaponics.com/flourish-farms <
> http://www.coloradoaquaponics.com/flourish-farms>
> >>>
> >>> Jason
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> www.realearthdesign.com
> >>>
> >>> 720-496-9744
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Kia ora
> >>
> >> [image: Picture]
> >> *Steve Hart*
> >> *Ecology Architect*
> >> *Designer, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically Sustainable Resilient
> >> Environments, through Urban Design, Architecture, Landscape Architecture
> >> and Systems Ecology.​*
> >> Skype: tipenemanawa
> >> Phone: +64 220 75 62 11
> >>
> >> Permaculture Global Design:
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> http://www.permacultureglobaldesign.org/>
> >>
> >> The Permaculture College of Europe.
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> >>
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> >> www.permaculturepartnerships.com
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> >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >> http://www.ipermie.net
> >> Avant Geared  https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared/
> >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> >> pioneers practicing and teaching permaculture
> >> while designing ecological, biointensive land use systems with
> integrated
> >> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> >> nature-compatible
> >> human habitat --
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> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > http://www.ipermie.net
> > Avant Geared  https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared/
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers practicing and teaching permaculture
> > while designing ecological, biointensive land use systems with
> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> nature-compatible
> > human habitat --
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared  https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared/
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers practicing and teaching permaculture
> while designing ecological, biointensive land use systems with integrated
> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> nature-compatible
> human habitat --
>



-- 
Kia ora

[image: Picture]
*Steve Hart*
*Ecology Architect*
*Designer, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically Sustainable Resilient
Environments, through Urban Design, Architecture, Landscape Architecture
and Systems Ecology.​*
Skype: tipenemanawa
Phone: +64 220 75 62 11

Permaculture Global Design:
www.permacultureglobaldesign.org

The Permaculture College of Europe.
www.permaculturecollege.eu
https://permaculturecollege.academia.edu/SteveHart

GAPPS The Global Alliance for Permaculture Partnerships and Solutions.
www.permaculturepartnerships.com


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