[permaculture] IPC Values ?

Koreen Brennan koreenbrennan at gmail.com
Wed Jul 1 08:34:35 EDT 2015


Steve,

"However my supposed subjective views based on or influenced by
personal feelings,
tastes, or opinions of the key speakers *is shared by others as *
*well. Consequently the response has been one of grave disappointment
that**such
a list of key note speakers, in no way reflects the promoted theme*."

These are generalities, there are no specifics here.

" We also know there are many shortcomings to the whole discipline evolved
through Permaculture since its inception. The greatest IMO is *the lack of
design capacity in all who carry on any initiative under*
*its banner."*

More generalities.

"*None of the key note speakers are **designers, none have any successful
design solutions. None are involved in **developing honest design
initiatives*."

And this is also a generality that you have not presented a single fact to
back up.

I didn't go through everything you said, but there may be more
generalities.

" I have evolved my design critique through the severe frames within
that associated
professional world. The critiques are severe, but often far too few."

OK, so where are the critiques? That might actually be useful, maybe.
Generalities are not useful, they are only upsetting because they smack of
stereotyping; they feel dehumanizing and belittling. That is something that
some people in the mainstream design world do very well - from fashion to
architecture - is cut each other down until people no longer want to have
anything to do with design. From my experience, that is the idea - to cut
down the "competition."  That winnowing process starts in design school and
has nothing to do with how much potential a student has as a designer.

You still have not stated upon what you are basing your criteria for "who
is a legitimate designer". .

As a permaculture designer, I have my own set of critiques for design
professionals who do not see the forest for the trees (and there are many
out there). As a specific, I take my PDC students to the top Platinum LEED
building in my area so they can observe the design flaws. These are
students who have studied permaculture for 6 days, yet they see the
omissions and flaws of one of the top "Green" building, designed by one of
the top architectural design firms in the area, simply by applying the
permaculture principles to it.

Specific flaws: roof water catchment goes into a pond and a wetland but is
not used at all in the building itself. It looks fancy, but commercial
buildings are required to build ditches and that's all it is, a glorified
catchment ditch. They did plant some wetland plants though, and got some
points for that. They put chlorine in the pond water to keep the algae out
though, lol. No water re-use of the building's showers, toilets, commercial
kitchen, etc. Lo-flo toilets only (again a minimum legal requirement).
There are a number of better options.

Solar only handles 20% of electricity usage - yet cost $300K for a 15,000
sq ft building. Where is the waste?

Landscape has some energy capture elements but also huge expanses of lawn
(in Florida) that is not used for anything - no one even walks on it. The
beautiful old growth pecan and oak trees (it's illegal to cut down the
oaks, but they probably got points for it anyway) are struggling,
surrounded by grass and no mulch.

Huge amounts of wasted space with giant ego hallways and ceilings that are
50+ feet high. Lots of heating and cooling going on in those mostly empty
hallways. Windows not placed for maximum passive result. Thermal mass not
used to its greatest effect. The aesthetic result could have been gotten in
many other ways.

Community garden beds built with wood, on a cement sidewalk, raised to
waist level, in Florida. Complex and expensive irrigation stopped working.
A challenge to keep anything alive in them. The wood is falling apart.

Community outdoor space totally uncreated in a city community center.
Director tried to create it in the parking lot, but had to modify a bunch
of stuff. Huge amounts of wasted outdoor space filled with ornamental
plants, many of which need regular watering.

There are many missed opportunities for flex space and facilitation of use
of human resources - the building costs a lot to run, for one thing.

There is more, but you get the idea. I'm not an architect, but I am a
professional permaculture designer and if I had been on that design team, I
would have more than paid for my fee in saved money and increased capacity
in that building (and I regularly do this on projects I sit in on). So
please, consider finding out about people before discounting that they have
any value whatsoever!

To suggest that the design world has its shit together better than
permaculture is a very adventurous statement, in my opinion. Look at the
outcomes of the design world's designs; it isn't hard to find horrifying
failures. Maybe you are talking about the methodologies, but if they were
so great, there would be less failures. I would say the major failing of
mainstream design methods is that they don't connect the dots nearly enough.

And yes, there are some brilliant solutions as well. Usually not very
holistic, but brilliant in their own way. Anders Nyquist is an architect I
admire for his work in Sweden and elsewhere, for instance. He's a guy who
actually had 900 year old paint on ancient churches in Europe analyzed so
he could recreate that very resilient, sustainable formula. No VOCs, for
real  Now, that is my kind of designer!

I've seen some very nice designs out there done by mid level permacutlure
designers as well as veterans. And I've seen people who never did a course
but have common sense and the ability to observe, create some brilliant
solutions as well. Some of these are heads above what "seasoned design
professionals" are doing. This isn't because those design professionals
aren't smart or good at what they do. There are some brilliant and
beautiful aspects of that LEED building, for sure. But those permaculture
principles are powerful things even in the hands of people who haven't been
to design school. And in some cases, that can even be an advantage because
they are more free to think outside the box and not be afraid to do so.

Best, Koreen



On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 2:44 AM, Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Koreen..thanks for your inputs. Just a clarification on what I said in
> the first instance, quote
>
> "The promoted  Theme of IPC12 is "*Designing* the network we want - for
> people from *around the world* using permaculture in their everyday lives
> and *communities*." So my argument is, where are the designers in the key
> note speakers ? and where is the around the world communities?. Is there
> something missing or have I missed it ? None of the key note speakers are
> designers, none have any successful design solutions. None are involved in
> developing honest design initiatives."
>
> You have clearly distorted my original comment by misquoting me  "No one
> giving keynotes at IPCUK is a decent designer"
>
> Nor is my statement any use of the "ad hominem" nor a personal attack,
> insults nor sword rattling.
>
> It seems you try to offer correction to my views by way of distortion then
> hypocrisy suggesting we all need to respect "people care". I am not
> attacking any people in anyway I am simply asking the question where are
> the designers that have the capacity needed to be key note speakers at an
> international conference of this magnitude. Or am I wrong here in thinking
> such a conference in fact does have magnitude ? or even deserves it ? I,
> for one clearly thinks it does or at least should.
>
> Clearly you choose to attack me personally rather than offering
> constructive debate on the subject. I am not attacking Darren but he has
> been the only listed Key Note speaker (since withdrawn) to respond to my
> views/argument. Clearly he has taken my comment personally and also feels
> attacked. That is his ownership and obviously I've hit a nerve. In my
> recent reply to his responses I alluded to the fact that we clearly operate
> differently in the world of Permaculture Design. I have come through the
> past 40 years in the design industry as a professional and through
> academia, studying working professionally and academically in the industry
> of design in the land use and built environment disciplines.
>
> Jason points out that perhaps I should be focussing my views on Geoff
> Lawton who seemingly has bought his seat as KNS. Here is yet another who
> does not deserve to represent the worlds of Permculture as a Designer. I
> also allude to the views that we actually have a long way to go in the
> world of design to achieve the levels needed to call ourselves Designers of
> Permaculture. However in saying this I have seen many great individual
> design elements amongst many projects through different views , media and
> on the ground. I have also seen many disasters and absurd failures. Some
> held up as great flagships. We all know Geoff's flagship " Greening the
> Desert" and if you would like commentary on the value of that ask Scott
> Pittman.
>
> I have asked Darren to nominate what his flagships are ? with no response
> so far.
>
> Steve Hart
>
> On 30 June 2015 at 23:20, Koreen Brennan <koreenbrennan at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I agree that we need to challenge ourselves out of the weed stage, to
> > constantly strive to become better designers, and to consistently
> challenge
> > our ideas. I welcome any push to do so.  I think it is essential for the
> > movement to do so in fact.
> >
> > But for me, stating that "No one giving keynotes at IPCUK is a decent
> > designer" falls under the category of ad hominem attack. It is a
> > generality, it offers no specifics as to what is wrong with any of these
> > people's designs, or what specific criteria Steve is judging design
> ability
> > on. I have my doubts that Steve has looked at many of these people's
> > designs. It is difficult to respond to ad hominem attacks because there
> is
> > no substance to them, it is a lazy way to "debate." Negative emotional
> > responses are often a product of such an attack.
> >
> > How can we increase our capacity as designers while demonstrating the
> > permaculture ethic of people care? Are personal insults and sword
> rattling
> > really the best way we can come up with to do this?  Can we apply the
> > design principles to how we treat each other? And if not, I'd like to
> > respectfully ask that we at least consider using specifics when accusing
> > others of incompetence, as those accusations can then be specifically
> > addressed or adjudicated. And the movement and our abilities as designers
> > can actually be strengthened.
> >
> > Best, Koreen
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 7:55 PM, Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt at gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Steve,
> > > I think you're barking up the wrong tree with Darren, and at least
> > several
> > > other of the speakers listed on the programme, of which Darren wasn't
> one
> > > that I noticed. Not that they need anyone to defend them. I missed this
> > > whole conversation while teaching a phenomenal PDC with Scott
> overlooking
> > > the glorious Rio Grande Rift.
> > >
> > > I just looked at the IPC website. Geoff is on the top of the sponsors
> > list.
> > > I'm sure he paid for that, not that there's anything wrong with that.
> Are
> > > you sure your problem isn't mostly with him though? His website is
> > awfully,
> > > um, how do you say...if you buy my films you too can learn to flip
> houses
> > > and make a million...auto-cue melodic angel music...the savior has
> > > come..and if you call right now, we'll send you TWO films for the price
> > of
> > > FREE! On the internet it's always 1am with no programming left
> somewhere.
> > >
> > > My point being I would hate to see Darren thrown into the same lot.
> > >
> > > Jason
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >
> > > www.realearthdesign.com
> > >
> > > 720-496-9744
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture at lists.ibiblio.orgubscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list
> > info:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > message archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
> > > message archive mirrors:
> > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/permaculturelist
> > > http://permacultureforum.blogspot.com
> > > http://permaculturelist.wordpress.com
> > > Google message archive search:
> > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > http://www.ipermie.net
> > > Avant Geared  https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared/
> > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > > pioneers practicing and teaching permaculture
> > > while designing ecological, biointensive land use systems with
> integrated
> > > elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> > > nature-compatible
> > > human habitat --
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture at lists.ibiblio.orgubscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list
> info:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
> > message archive mirrors:
> > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/permaculturelist
> > http://permacultureforum.blogspot.com
> > http://permaculturelist.wordpress.com
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > http://www.ipermie.net
> > Avant Geared  https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared/
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > pioneers practicing and teaching permaculture
> > while designing ecological, biointensive land use systems with integrated
> > elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> > nature-compatible
> > human habitat --
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Kia ora
>
> [image: Picture]
> *Steve Hart*
> *Ecology Architect*
> *Designer, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically Sustainable Resilient
> Environments, through Urban Design, Architecture, Landscape Architecture
> and Systems Ecology.​*
> Skype: tipenemanawa
> Phone: +64 220 75 62 11
>
> Permaculture Global Design:
> www.permacultureglobaldesign.org
>
> The Permaculture College of Europe.
> www.permaculturecollege.eu
> https://permaculturecollege.academia.edu/SteveHart
>
> GAPPS The Global Alliance for Permaculture Partnerships and Solutions.
> www.permaculturepartnerships.com
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.orgubscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
> message archive mirrors:
> https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/permaculturelist
> http://permacultureforum.blogspot.com
> http://permaculturelist.wordpress.com
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared  https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared/
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers practicing and teaching permaculture
> while designing ecological, biointensive land use systems with integrated
> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> nature-compatible
> human habitat --
>


More information about the permaculture mailing list