[permaculture] Advance notes on Permaculture Standards and Principals for NAPC

Chris Carnevale c.s.carnevale at gmail.com
Mon Aug 18 10:05:46 EDT 2014

Thank you for your lead work here, Scott. This is a critically important
discussion to have at NAPC and I am eager to know what comes of it. I
unfortunately will not be able to attend, so I want to put in a few
thoughts here.

You brought up the idea that a PDC certificate does not confer the right to
teach or design, however, the agenda currently lacks a substantial section
on “what criteria are necessary to call oneself a "permaculture designer.”
You may want to add that in, and there may be other non-PDC/diploma
activities that would be worth touching on in this conversation, such as
teaching introduction to permaculture  or other less informal courses,
convening permaculture community groups, hosing permaculture
convergences/conferences, etc. and perhaps setting recommendations or
guidelines for these types of activities under the authority of PINA to the
Permaculture Institute.


Chris Carnevale
Charleston, South Carolina

On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 6:58 AM, Lawrence London <lfljvenaura at gmail.com>

> On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 3:16 AM, <farmer1 at gasperfarm.com> wrote:
> > Discussions like these give me a sour feeling as I dislike political
> > wrangling. These things seem inevitably to degenerate into protecting
> > turf, excluding people, and creating boundaries around accepted thoughts
> > and practices and all of this serves to squelch innovation.
> >
> >
> It looks like you have written off the entirety of Scott's effort to use a
> valuable convergence to create documentation about a definition of
> Permaculture and
> standards for Permaculture education that everyone would benefit from well
> into the future. In addition to that you are unjustly accusing Scott and
> others
> of "protecting turf, excluding people, and creating boundaries around
> accepted thoughts and practices and all of this serves to squelch
> innovation" It seems to me that the permaculture community having a
> properly described, in depth, well written set of standards to use on an
> ongoing basis, year after year, would serve to stimulate innovation.
> > In movement theory this situation is one that happens when a movement is
> > peaking and has or soon will reach the apex of its influence and
> > philosophy. When pioneers and visionaries are driving things folks are
> too
> > busy doing and innovating to worry about turf battles and solidifying
> > institutional control to maintain the ground taken.
> >
> After all that has been said and discussed about the great need for
> intelligent, comprehensive, in-depth Permaculture standards in our time,
> in part because of all the phonies and poseurs attempting to co-opt the
> movement exclusively for personal financial gain, you do not seem to
> think there is a need for that.
> > I'm not saying your efforts are not warranted or needed; I just take it
> as
> > a bad omen and this isn't the first such thing I've noticed.
> >
> Bad omen? What other things have you noticed?
> > Is PC capitalism an oxymoron looks like a worthy discussion.  What is the
> > Price of a PC looks like a ridiculous overreach in grabbing for power.
> >
> > Pete
> >
> On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 5:10 AM, Michael Pilarski via permaculture <
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
> > Some people do not like circles or holding hands or singing.  That is
> okay.
> > It is their right to stand aside and not participate.  I am all about
> freedom. On the other hand, if
> > some of us do want to stand in a circle, or hold hands, or sing songs,
> that is
> > our right and those who prefer not to, do not have the right to enforce
> their
> > preference on us.
> > At NAPC we will warn people before doing any of these things so that
> people can step aside.
> "I am all about freedom." Apparently freedom to alienate those attendees
> who have no interest in hand holding and singing in a circle
> and would rather just get on with work, i.e. creating Standards for
> Permaculture,  by accusing them of trying to enforce their will on others.
> I am sure that those people Toby mentioned will have their decision not to
> attend NAPC enforced by this unfortunate attitude.
> --
> Lawrence F. London
> lfljvenaura at gmail.com
> http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Skype: lawrence.f.london
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