[permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?

loren luyendyk loren at sborganics.com
Fri Aug 8 11:40:15 EDT 2014

Just to give a little background from my perspective for the most recent impetus to have the NAPC, or why I think we are converging:

In Cuba last November a group of us from USA met to discuss the possibility of having a Convergence.  The proposal was met with enthusiasm, and Monica and Bill graciously volunteered to help organize and host the event in Minnesota, as all present agreed that having the "first" convergence somewhere in the middle of the continent would be desirable just merely to meet mid way across the continent, instead of one or other coast.

The reason we decided (we as in the group present at the IPC) to converge was primarily, at least as I understood it, to discuss the next step of succession of the PC movement in the USA.  The issues at hand seemed to be "Standards of PC"- ie what is the 
curriculum of a PDC, who is qualified to teach one, and how to define 
what it takes to become a full fledged designer or teacher.  Jude Hobbs presented draft documents for PINA- PC Institute of North America- to be a "regulatory body" for PC moving forward. The desire to "centralize" this process was spurred by several questionable characters promoting PC without "following the rules".

Inherently the challenge lies in trying to organize a disparate group, who pride themselves in being de-centralized, and possibly a little anarchistic.  (TM of the name is an issue too, which I think should be addressed- maybe licensing PC as Creative Commons??)  This could prove more difficult than herding cats, as undoubtedly many will protest any effort to create a central body for PC- but hopefully not. 

I see this as an important step in our succession, and a discussion that needs to take place in person with our peers.  For this reason (at least in my mind) we voted to have the NAPC.  I envision an association much like the International Association of Arborists, which I am a member.  The ISA promotes arborists (who are qualified and have done the education) to local municipalities in order to ensure proper tree care throughout the USA.

I think we could have a similar association, which will provide standards and curricula, issue certificates, certify designers and teachers, and promote them nationally online and in print to local agencies and clients.  This service would be fee based, though ideally affordable, and would be worth the investment for individuals to join in order to promote their work locally, under the umbrella of PINA or whatever we decide the acronym for the central body will be.  We can design an association to reflect the needs of our 
diverse body of practitioners and also help grow our movement 
professionally.  In addition to all of us promoting PC individually, we 
will have a common voice which can issue press release etc as a unified 

To change topic slightly, I wanted to address your assertion Toby, that we can design ourselves out of anything- more specifically that we can design away all limits (not sure what term you used but this is the gist I got).  I just wanted to make an observation.  While I believe it is true that with design we can solve any "problem", I also believe that there are limits to certain systems that by nature restrict, or set limits, to growth.  For example, you would not pack as many livestock into a paddock until they were side by side stripping the soil of every living green thing.  You could but it wouldn't last.  The context sets the limit to the system. 

This phenomena of (setting) limits to systems has been defined as an Ethic, but I think it is a Principle as well.  Every system has a limit, and to bring it back to the design of the NAPC pricing schedule, this limit (price of tix) is defined by what the market will bear- meaning "what will people pay to join a convergence"?  We could price it at $10K per ticket, but nobody would show.  The market will not bear it.  The price of a ticket is only worth what people will pay.  This is a limit set by this system, which could change over time but as it is now it may represent the reality of the capacity of the system- ie the disposable income in the pocketbooks of our fellow permies.

Once again this is not a CONFERENCE to present permaculture to the mainstream, this is a peer to peer CONVERGENCE so that we can discuss these very issues that Toby and others have brought up, which are big ones that deserve to be hashed out in person.  If we have to slog through the mud and hold hands in a circle to make this happen, I will still join.  

Loren Luyendyk
Accredited Permaculture Teacher, PRI-AUS
ISA Certified Arborist WE-7805A

> From: toby at patternliteracy.com
> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 21:27:19 -0700
> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?
> Robyn (and Koreen and Scott)
> This has been very helpful to define the role of a convergence vs conference. All of the convergences I've attended have been indistinguishable from the conferences I used to attend as a scientist and science writer (except for the camping in the mud part). Lots of presentations, a few working groups. So I suspect that the organizers of many convergences don't know the difference, either. 
> Portland's famed Village Building Convergence, for example, has nothing to do with small groups and discussions. It's a conference and festival, and the word really is used just to avoid the mainstream connotations of "conference." All this had me seeing "convergence" as hippie-speak for conference.
> In the US, permaculture seems barely ready for a conference, in terms of having real data to present. I look forward to the day when we can have an Expo, and invite the general public.
> NAPC is a long-awaited stage in the succession process.
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
> On Aug 6, 2014, at 10:59 PM, Robyn Francis <robyn at permaculture.com.au> wrote:
> > I've been following this thread and wish to clarify a few key things re the history of Pc Convergences. 
> > 
> > To Converge:  "to come together from different directions, to meet;  to tend towards or achieve union or a common conclusion or result"
> > 
> > The first Pc Designers' Convergence was held in 1983 (nothing to do with astrology or any other new-age thing), then a year later the first IPC was held in 1984 when the nature of our gatherings, i.e. convergences, was discussed and agreed to.
> > 
> > Originally the designers' Convergences were held first as an in-house, peer-to-peer gathering and sharing of PDC graduates, then followed by a public event sharing with the wider public. Public events have included all manner of formats including Symposiums, Conferences, Expo and Festivals, though the Conference format has generally predominated. I think the Expo format actually had the great percentage of non-permie participants attending.
> > 
> > Convergences were originally light on presentations and big on discussion groups and forums exploring 'domains' (Aid work, urban, rural, pc in schools, pc education, advocacy, communications etc), we had biome meetings where folk got together according to climatic zones to compare notes and strategies, and there were also often short professional development workshops on specialised topics (sometimes delivered by external experts).  Early convergences included important discussions, debates and agreements about the movement (pc education/PDC curricula and professional integrity) and provided a forum for developing collective positions on important issues of a national/international significance. The early convergences were more focussed on strategic development of the movement, strengthening networks and sharing resources. 
> > 
> > The public event was initially more of the "sharing what we're doing with the wider world" stuff with some keynote and plenary sessions and lots of smaller group presentations and workshops.  Some of more successful public events have been where there's been plenty of space for permies to set up visual/poster displays and sell resources which facilitates a much richer exchange between permies, and the public and also with each other.
> > 
> > I don't know why the order was reversed for these events, with the public conferencing happening before the in-house converging. I really miss the original sequence with the convergence first, as we had the chance to catch up & reconnect with each other, do our in-house stuff and then present to the wider public with a strong sense of solidarity and purpose. The public event was also an occasion to launch and/or announce major convergence outcomes to the world, sometimes together with a media release and at times this has actually made mention in mainstream media. 
> > 
> > 
> > Would like to say more but have PDC session (Taiwan) starting in 2 min and won't have internet access again for another 2 days…
> > 
> > good to see this stuff being discussed
> > 
> > Robyn
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 07/08/2014, at 11:35 AM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture wrote:
> > 
> >> Thanks for your clarification Scott, on the conference vs convergence at IPC. We are intending too that this convergence will have more of the elements that you mention and remain open to feedback and design input on making that happen! 
> >> 
> >> There was some attempt by another group to create a professional conference (which would have been more of what you are describing, Toby?), before this convergence. That need was and is perceived. The time line was too tight to pull off properly.  Next time! I'm looking forward to what will be produced at the next IPC, and also at how the regional convergences will continue to evolve.  
> >> 
> >> Koreen Brennan
> >> http://growpermaculture.com
> >> http://northamericanpermaculture.org
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 7:22 PM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> I want to clarify what I mean by external and internal facing events. There is a history in permaculture, and tradition and ceremony that has evolved. Those things meet needs of those who participate, but may not meet the needs of some of the people who are getting into permaculture now. It's good to acknowledge that, and I believe that is at least part of your point, is that correct? I believe there are many gradients of presentation that can be made, to meet various needs. 
> >> 
> >> We have the needs of existing communities to celebrate together, to evolve together, and to offer mutual support. We have the needs of new permaculturists - which are varied but usually involve learning more about the subject. We have needs of people who are working in parallel movements but with different approaches, and different cultural paradigms. We have needs of people in different cultures across the planet, etc. What if we tailor our events to meet specific needs, and not try to be all things to all people in any one event? For instance, when we are trying to reach new permaculturists, the focus can be on providing those things that they need the most, and let's ask them what they feel that is. When trying to reach officials, let's create an event tailored to what is most real to them instead of trying to make our convergences fit their realities and needs (this is something I'm good at and would be happy to collaborate on...).  There are many
> >> possible events that we could create. Let's look at existing resources and energies (such as already existing and established events) that could be worked with as well. Some of us are already doing this to varying degrees. Let's be very clear about who our public is and what outcome we are seeking, and how realistic that is. And we can realize that everything we are doing will evolve, as the succession process continues. 
> >> 
> >> You are very good at finding a common language which many can relate to when you describe permaculture design. That is an important gift. Not everyone can or wants to do that - all of us have our niches. It's great to recognize and honor those niches and their functions, and to design the system so that they all can flourish. I don't think our views differ that much on these issues, actually. :-)  Thank you for continuing to clarify your concerns, it has helped me to clarify some things about the succession process in my mind. 
> >> 
> >> Koreen Brennan
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On , Koreen Brennan <cory8570 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Toby, 
> >> 
> >> First, I wanted to clarify one detail. NAPC lodging is NOT camping only and never has been. We offer motel contact info on our web site for those who don't want to camp. Harmony Park also offers RV sites with full electric, etc.We are well aware that some people can't camp or don't want to and that has always been a part of the conversation from the beginning.  Here is the actual information from our web site, which has been up for a while now. 
> >> http://northamericanpermaculture.org/lodgingaccommodations/
> >> 
> >> 
> >> I am totally with you Toby, regarding the importance of being more accessible to mainstream people who understand that change is needed and presenting permaculture in a way that enables them to see the power in the design process. I am working toward that end myself and will continue to do so. 
> >> 
> >> I was not aware of the New Age connotations of the word "convergence" - it's too bad that people get so fixed on word connotations but I understand that this is sometimes the reality. I also do understand that some people do not want to participate in ceremony, and I respect the diverse religious backgrounds and beliefs of participants.  
> >> I think that the situations you describe can be addressed with design - without inhibiting people's desire to build community through circles, etc. I've brought government officials to events and explained beforehand what to expect to avoid the walk out phenomena, and have suggested that they come after the "opening circle" ceremony if they prefer to skip that. When inviting officials to such an event, I tend to tell them what presentations I think they would be most interested in and they usually appreciate that. 
> >> 
> >> Because the NAPC is so new, and because per survey this is what most people wanted, and because we are applying (to some degree) the principle "Start slow and small", the focus of this convergence is internal. We have much to discuss and work out internally. I also have envisioned, like you, future gatherings that would include to allied groups, organizations and individuals - I am very excited about the cross pollination potential that is already happening in some areas. Networks are an incredibly powerful pattern and have many uses and permutations.  
> >> 
> >> One thought, Toby - could it be that convergences are an internal function and conferences are external? And the reason officials were invited to an internal gathering was because there weren't any external facing events in that area? A scarcity? I think it's vital that we differentiate the various needs and functions that exist within the community, and not try to collapse them all into a single event. We are talking about succession here to some degree. We need multiple models to meet the growing diversity of needs in our community.  Should we be free to internally define what we want to experience in our gatherings, without outside people judging us? Will our gatherings evolve as a wider diversity of people join the movement? Will new "tribes" form as part of the succession process, to meet a widening diversity of needs? Already, preppers are having their own permaculture type meetings with their own flavor. 
> >> 
> >> Maybe there is something in between spiral dances/camping/drum circles, and uber-expensive conferences in casinos - no? I would love to be a part of creating a conference that would bring together permaculturists, officials, and other forward thinkers and solution-oriented people to work out some collaborative solutions. That activity is right up my alley - it is the type of work I did before I got into permaculture, bringing together diverse elements in coalitions around common interests. 
> >> 
> >> But wait, Bioneers does that already, right? And there are other already existing models doing that; perhaps more of us should attend those functions and be a part of them. 
> >> 
> >> What I'm getting from your comments (and correct me if I'm mistaken) is a call to more closely define needs and resources of the growing diversity in our networks as well as those outside of our networks who might become interested in permaculture, and find ways to meet the needs with the resources. It entails close observation of an evolving system, and reassessment of some of the design elements. That doesn't mean there isn't a place for those elements any longer - but there are new elements in the system; how can we integrate for the greatest yield?  
> >> 
> >> Koreen Brennan
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 4:51 PM, Scott Pittman <scott at permaculture.org> wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> The IPC is an example of both of these models.  First there is a Conference
> >> held at a very posh Hotel or Conference center where various pundits hold
> >> forth on some aspect of the theme of the IPC.  In the lobbies there
> >> are
> >> various permaculture displays offering seeds, books, technology, and other
> >> items for sale.  
> >> 
> >> I usually find these "conferences" extremely boring with an occasional new
> >> idea or technique that makes me think and offers the occasional aha moment.
> >> The idea of the conference has been to interface with all strata of society
> >> and to spread the word of permaculture to the unwashed.  I don't think this
> >> has been accomplished in any significant way.  Certainly the conference in
> >> Havana was mostly permaculture presenters singing to the choir.  The
> >> conference in Jordan had one outstanding presenter who has
> >> done some amazing
> >> work reforesting arid lands in Africa otherwise it was pretty bland and a
> >> show case for Geoff Lawton and an embarrassing presentation by Bill
> >> Mollison.
> >> 
> >> The convergence follows the Conference and this is a gathering of those who
> >> are certified through the Permaculture Design Certification course.  This
> >> was established to be an in house event that dealt with those things
> >> specific to permaculture as an organization and design system.  It is also
> >> an opportunity for interaction with old friends and companions from afar and
> >> a chance for anyone who wants to do show and tell of their projects and
> >> any
> >> break throughs or new technologies.  
> >> 
> >> While I always love seeing old friends most of the rest of it is as exciting
> >> as a new type of herb spiral.  I could have better spent my money just going
> >> to visit old friends without the pretence. 
> >> 
> >> I say this not to dismiss the functions of either Conferences or
> >> Convergences but to point out that so far I have only seen poorly organized
> >> and unimaginative events that seemed more an excuse to party than to get
> >> anything else done.  As I said before in this list I am a participant in
> >> these events because I want to see us tighten up
> >> our game.  I don't think
> >> that permaculture design has ever been applied to these events and it shows.
> >> For the most part we are parodying models that have been designed by
> >> corporations and professional organizations, and since we are neither we
> >> don't do a very good job.
> >> 
> >> I have also attended those professional conferences outside of the
> >> permaculture realm and also find them lacking in grabbing my imagination and
> >> inspiring me to go out and do great things.  Mainly they seem to provide an
> >> enormous list of presentations that make it impossible to partake of but a
> >> few.
> >> 
> >> Personally I am happy this is a "convergence" because I would like to have a
> >> serious conversation with my peers about how do we become more relevant in
> >> the world.  I am operating out of the same urgency that Bill Mollison
> >> conveyed when I studied with him some 30 years ago.  Thirty years have
> >> passed and our numbers have increased geometrically, thanks in large part to
> >> Bill's missionary zeal, but our influence has not grown proportional to our
> >> numbers.  Time is running out and if not us who is going to provide real
> >> solutions to the physical and social cataclysm we face. I don't see anyone
> >> else out there who has the tools, ethics, energy, and
> >> will that would come
> >> close to what permaculture has to offer. 
> >> 
> >> I am happy to hear you say, Toby, that rather than mainstream permaculture,
> >> you want to permaculture mainstream!  Good for you and I agree that is the
> >> task.  
> >> 
> >> If we are going to continue having these large international, national,
> >> regional gatherings then we certainly need to make them relevant to the task
> >> at hand rather than a poor imitation of what "mainstream" provides.  There
> >> is so much we need to talk about, decide and act on and my hope is that this
> >> NAPC will provide an atmosphere that is conducive to
> >> these tasks.
> >> 
> >> Scott
> >> Permaculture Institute
> >> 
> >> 
> >> "To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
> >> obsolete"  Buckminster Fuller
> >> 
> >> 
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: permaculture [mailto:permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf
> >> Of Toby Hemenway
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:07 PM
> >> To: permaculture
> >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?
> >> 
> >> Koreen, etc--
> >> 
> >> Lots of good stuff here; thanks for all this. Mostly my comments have been
> >> to encourage us to up our game; to sometimes bemore professional, to appeal
> >> to a wider audience, and to tap into resources that permaculturists have
> >> largely ignored, and I appreciate the other efforts to do this, too.
> >> Wonderful that NAPC can be a stimulus for this and more.
> >> 
> >> Re the word "convergence." Most permaculture convergences I've attended have
> >> been just as oriented toward lectures and talking heads as conferences,
> >> while I've been to conferences that have been dynamic and interactive. I
> >> think the distinction is primarily one of advertising and an attempt by
> >> permaculturists to say that they are doing something different. A conference
> >> is what you make it. 
> >> 
> >> For most people, the connotations of "conference" are simply a group of
> >> professionals coming together to share their work with each other, though
> >> usually at some classy joint.
> >> 
> >> But "convergence" has strong connotations that are very class-specific. The
> >> first convergence that I know of was the 1987 "Harmonic Convergence," a New
> >> Age gathering based on an well-hyped astrological "convergence" of the
> >> planets and a misinterpretation of the Mayan calendar (like 2012) in which,
> >> if only enough people came together, the world would enter a new age of
> >> peace. Only hippies and new-agers hold convergences. I have nothing against
> >> hippies; I am one myself. But I would like permaculture to appeal to more
> >> than hippies, and if we market ourselves using hippie, dated New Age
> >> language, we won't do that. I run into pushback from professionals in many
> >> fields on our language and presentation, over and over again.
> >> 
> >> At "La Convergence," a large permaculture gathering in Quebec that
> >> I just
> >> attended, a group of the most influential people there (the site owners, who
> >> are serious movers in the community and fiber-hemp farmers; an
> >> internationally known artist who also pioneered virtual reality software;
> >> one of Canada's best known environmentalists, and several others) all
> >> disliked the word "convergence, and asked why not call it a conference,
> >> because that's what it was. And these people love permaculture. Imagine how
> >> others feel.
> >> 
> >> At a NW Pc Convergence a few years back, several high-ranking policymakers
> >> from Portland attended, arriving in time for the opening ceremony. People
> >> circled up, held hands, sang, did circle dances, and made an invocation to
> >> the earth goddess. That was more than the officials could stand, and they
> >> left before the main events began. Will they ever consider permaculture
> >> seriously again?
> >> 
> >> So, if we want to reach anyone outside of those already in the
> >> counterculture, we need to stop using exclusive language and practices that
> >> are alienating to most of the population. Many of us are so used to speaking
> >> our language that we don't know how off-putting and class-specific it is. To
> >> attract people out of their usual mode, we need to actually be attractive.
> >> I'm not
> >> interested in mainstreaming permaculture, but I do want to
> >> permaculture the mainstream.
> >> 
> >> And that gets to Koreen's question about events that only offer camping as
> >> lodging. Right there, we've just ruled out most of the population, and put a
> >> burden on those who are flying to attend (tent, sleeping bag, pad, etc on a
> >> plane? $50 bag fee right there) and on those who are older. At a conference,
> >> I want to be at my best, and after 2 nights on hard ground, in a crowd of
> >> tents with people talking till late, coughing and snoring, and waving
> >> flashlights in the dark, I'm a wreck. I was fine with that 20 years ago, but
> >> not now. 
> >> 
> >> This is all fine for NAPC this time, because we're creating an event
> >> primarily for insiders. But if we want to take advantage of permaculture's
> >> potential to change all of society, we need to reach out to the vast
> >> majority who don't think like us or use words like convergence and Gaia. 
> >> 
> >> I think permaculture has done a fine job in serving the alternative
> >> community and reaching out to low-income activists and farmers, but it's
> >> been to the exclusion of serving the rest of society. I'd like to see us
> >> develop a more professional component, more outreach, and more willingness
> >> to meet outsiders
> >> where they are.
> >> 
> >> Toby
> >> http://patternliteracy.com
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Aug 6, 2014, at 1:26 AM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture
> >> <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Toby and all, 
> >>> 
> >>> I totally agree that it is all solvable and it's all about design. Early
> >> in the process we discussed the idea of taking longer to put this event on
> >> so that we would have more time to implement a full design. We decided to go
> >> forward because we felt that the value of having a convergence this year
> >> outweighed the downside. We have engaged the design process, but we have
> >> realized that because of the time frame, we would not be able to create an
> >> optimum design. So the question then becomes what is most important - what
> >> will get the most future yield? We are still getting what we feel are key
> >> parts of a permaculture design for this event done. 
> >>> 
> >>> For the record, I feel that there are important distinctions between
> >> convergences and conferences, and we need both of
> >> them. Conferences focus on
> >> experts giving others information. They are often focused on a one-way flow
> >> of communication. Sometimes there are decisions made or break out sessions
> >> but usually not. 
> >>> 
> >>> Converging on a point (meaning a physical location), in order to
> >> facilitate rich energy exchanges is an ancient practice that is quite
> >> sustainable. Many indigenous people have done it at times of necessity. I am
> >> currently working and living at Pine Ridge Lakota reservation - the tribal
> >> traditions of tiospayes (small, extended family localized units) converging
> >> for larger gatherings go back at some length. I just
> >> attended a national
> >> level powwow and observed the patterns there. 
> >>> 
> >>> Convergences stack functions, creating opportunity for cross-pollination
> >> amongst tribes in a number of ways - historically,this has included an
> >> increased field for selection of mates, strategical alliances and
> >> agreements, and the exchange of tools, horses, seeds, culture, etc. Tribes
> >> might hunt together or do other things where economy of scale matters. I
> >> don't think the concepts of convergence and conference should be collapsed
> >> as they hold two very different functions. There are many elements of
> >> permaculture design present in the convergence
> >> model. I'm so happy to hear
> >> that Jono and others will be presenting info about the successes of the NE
> >> convergences and guilds as there are many regions that can potentially
> >> benefit from that information. A convergence can be many things to many
> >> people and the regional convergences have been exploring that edge. It will
> >> be interesting to get them together to compare notes! 
> >>> 
> >>> Some have voiced concerns that we aren't ready for a continental
> >> convergence. My view is that things are marching forward in a number of
> >> sectors on this planet, whether we are "ready" for them or not. Therefore,
> >> we perhaps need to push
> >> ourselves harder and get ourselves ready, and a
> >> continental convergence may be able to assist with that process. My hope is
> >> that some of us at least will look outward, at the larger patterns in
> >> society, and engage in thoughtful discussions about opportunities and
> >> challenges, strengths and weaknesses. 
> >>> 
> >>> I would of course like to get paid for the work of organizing - it is part
> >> of the third ethic of fair share.  The concept of receiving energy for
> >> valuable energy contributed is part of a sustainable system. There are some
> >> of us out there who will do the work whether we are paid or not when we
> >> think the job
> >> is important enough. Whether that is the best possible way to
> >> do things or not, we are filling niches that no one else has stepped up to
> >> fill. I'm feeling that it will be worth it on many levels, but I do agree
> >> that we need to tweak the finance model, not just in this one case but
> >> overall. 
> >>> 
> >>> And there are a number of us interested in addressing this at the
> >> convergence. Financial Permaculture is slated to be a working group there
> >> and it may end up breaking off into more than one. It is a huge subject, and
> >> there are many ways in which permaculture design can be applied more
> >> thoroughly. I hear Scott's comments
> >> about invisible structure - it is my
> >> reality that invisible structure is almost always the make-break point of
> >> any design. 
> >>> 
> >>> I'm personally interested in many permutations of cooperative models and
> >> looking forward to linking with others of like mind.  I think that financial
> >> structures in our community that truly use the tools, principles and
> >> elements of permaculture are much too few and far between (a scarcity that
> >> can be remedied with abundances) and am  interested in hearing about and
> >> supporting any that do. I agree that there is an abundance of money and we
> >> should be better at tapping into it
> >> because we will use it more wisely than
> >> many out there are doing.
> >>> 
> >>> I've been talking to various bright lights in the movement about
> >> prospective cooperative models and we are coming up with some creative ideas
> >> that we feel meet everybody's needs. I'm very interested in connecting with
> >> anyone who is serious about creating better models than those being
> >> currently used in our movement. I think it would be good for all of us to
> >> consider how we can help each other and collaborate more than we do, and I
> >> feel that in order to make that happen, we need to create structures that
> >> facilitate that. 
> >>> 
> >>> I am re-studying Donella Meadows' Thinking in Systems and am reminded that
> >> structure and model can make huge differences in system outcomes. I
> >> personally feel that the subject of economics of convergences and everything
> >> else in permaculture goes much deeper than marketing ploys. I personally got
> >> involved with this project in large part because I want to use intelligent
> >> design to move to the next stage of succession, and I see how meeting
> >> together in working groups, breakouts, etc, can assist that process. We are
> >> continuing to design these sessions for maximum effectiveness and are very
> >> interested in people's suggestions,
> >> thoughts and co-creation on that design
> >> process. 
> >>> 
> >>> How can we bring the maximum amount of consciousness to the process of
> >> converging? What does that mean, specifically at this time in our history
> >> and in the succession process? What would that look like, at the
> >> convergence? What can each of us bring to this gathering that will
> >> contribute to that consciousness and to an enlightened succession process
> >> that results in increased yields, abundance, ethics, and sanity? These are
> >> questions I'm asking myself regularly as the time draws near.
> >>> 
> >>> Best, Koreen
> >>> www.growpermaculture.com
> >>> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 3:12 PM, Bob Waldrop <bob at bobwaldrop.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> I agree this has been a valuable thread.
> >>> 
> >>> In my preevious experience in the convention business, generally you 
> >>> develop your budget based on previous experience.  The absolute
> >> hardest 
> >>> and most knuckle biting conference to present is a new conference, one 
> >>> without an established record or constituency.  The knucklebiting is 
> >>> because people always wait until the last minute to book their 
> >>> attendance and every conference I was ever involved with sold a lot of 
> >>> tickets in the last two weeks.  Of course "the last two weeks" is 
> >>> useless or nearly so when it comes to program, because your program is 
> >>> generally arranged months in advance of the final two weeks before the 
> >>> event.
> >>> 
> >>> I think crowd sourcing some seed money for the next event, or
> >> to fund 
> >>> the planning committee on an on-going basis, would be a great idea.
> >>> 
> >>> I also think that establishing a permanent organizing group is a better 
> >>> idea than handing the convention off to new people in different regions 
> >>> each year.  In other words, I'm assuming there will be a conversation at 
> >>> the event about the NEXT event.  One of the options is for local 
> >>> committees throughout the country to bid for the convention, the other 
> >>> is to have a permanent planning committee, which possibly could work 
> >>> with local groups.  I'd vote for the permanent planning committee.
> >>> 
> >>> Bob Waldrop, Okie City
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On 8/5/2014 1:50 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
> >>>> I'm gaining a lot from this thread and appreciate everyone's
> >> conscientious, thoughtful comments. Thomas brings up many good points, and I
> >> also want to get to a few of Koreen's. I think we are getting to some
> >> solutions here. A few responses:
> >>>> 
> >>>> On Aug 4, 2014, at 11:27 PM, Thomas Allen <thallen at nwlink.com> wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>>    Do we put on an event with volunteer labor at a very low price so
> >> young entrants into permaculture can attend or do we put on the best event
> >> possible.
> >>>> Where I'm trying to go with this is: it is not either/or. It's possible
> >> to put on excellent events with options that low-income people can afford,
> >>> 
> >>> _______________________________________________
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list maintenance:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > http://www.ipermie.net
> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible human habitat 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible human habitat 

More information about the permaculture mailing list