[permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?

Koreen Brennan cory8570 at yahoo.com
Fri Aug 8 10:49:06 EDT 2014


All the comments here have been valuable in looking at and more closely defining what we are trying to accomplish in our gatherings. One thing I've found while organizing this convergence is that there are many opinions out there about what our convergence should do and be. And maybe not enough discussion happening to really look at our options. I believe that realistically, if we are to accomplish anything of real value in 3 days together, we need to have these before conversations, and after conversations too. 

If we go into the convergence with enough thoughtfulness and information and some of the tougher questions already under discussion, I believe we can get a lot more done - and there is nothing - nothing - like face to face communication to get things done. True, the fact that we can Skype each other on the organizing team (as an example of people living in far corners of the US working with one another long distance) and see each other's faces while thousands of miles away is miraculous and wonderful, and we have gotten to know each other much better through that visual than phone conversation alone.  But there is something about being physically present with each other that can't be replaced (I think, anyway). 

 
I appreciate all of the comments made here; very valuable conversation! I hope it will continue! 

I also wonder if we're ready for an actual conference Toby, though I think that by holding one, we would force the issue of getting people to document more and bring together those sectors that do focus on documentation with what we are doing. So I am interested from that angle. An Expo would be great too. 

Koreen Brennan


 



On Friday, August 8, 2014 12:40 AM, Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart at gmail.com> wrote:
 


GOOOOD SHIT....love the debate, discussion and dialogue....ditto, ditto,
ditto to most if not all comments. I'd love to attend, to add to this
debate and the many threads to it. I had slotted it in, to my schedule, but
many other compounding overlapping energies may not see such realised. We
are back in Europe putting some energy in here to many different streams.
Most importantly the development of some of the threads of this broad
discussion. EPT, being the uppermost. Along with "The Permaculture College
of Europe", GAPPS, The Global Alliance of Permaculture Partnerships and
Solutions, an international Aid organisation. Money, Finance and Invisible
Structures. A new "Permaculture Journal" of science, promoted by Leo Bakx,
along with tremendous work from the UK Permaculture associations research
programme, evolving to "PIRN". I'm sure you will soon have an electronic
debriefing of this from Sandra Campe and also a F2F from Jillian Hovey.
There are many issues here debated in these threads, many different sides
many different colours all making up the patchwork of Pertmaculture. Scott
points out many that we need serious work on including a coming favourite
of mine "Invisible structure" where I have loaded into my wants, the
designing of an Advanced Permaculture Design Course in "Invisible
Structures" . I will be calling on all of you soon for your inputs.

Much of this latest energy was offered at the very recent European
Permaculture Conference and the last of a series of 7 conferences of EPT, (
perma*teachers*.eu) July 19-28 in Bulgaria.

Within these events there was discussion on other sub-regional gatherings
evolving
to recognise our greater bioregions, such as the Bulkans and the Slovacs.
Already
we have the Nordics having such conferences, or more Festivals. So as Scott
says
we do have a lot of work to do in order to evolve a new plan for the planet.

As an aside, being one of the original motivators for NAPC in order to
stimulate greater international structuring, by way of recognising
continental regions of the planet, I moved for the event to be considered
at Pine Ridge. My suggestion was for all attendees would do some physical
real work to leave something real behind. But that did not get much support
at all. Apart from Koreen and Albert Bates the rest of the continent was
silent.....bad energy perhaps ?

This whole discussion raises many issues, including those that LL has
offered. I hope the camp fires are ready for the stimulation of all threads
and that the astrological energies support such. Would love to be there, to
add my 20 cents worth sorry $150 and rub shoulders with Wes et al.......but
finances and other energies may not allow....go hard..Steve Hart


On 8 August 2014 06:27, Toby Hemenway <toby at patternliteracy.com> wrote:

> Robyn (and Koreen and Scott)
>
> This has been very helpful to define the role of a convergence vs
> conference. All of the convergences I've attended have been
> indistinguishable from the conferences I used to attend as a scientist and
> science writer (except for the camping in the mud part). Lots of
> presentations, a few working groups. So I suspect that the organizers of
> many convergences don't know the difference, either.
>
> Portland's famed Village Building Convergence, for example, has nothing to
> do with small groups and discussions. It's a conference and festival, and
> the word really is used just to avoid the mainstream connotations of
> "conference." All this had me seeing "convergence" as hippie-speak for
> conference.
>
> In the US, permaculture seems barely ready for a conference, in terms of
> having real data to present. I look forward to the day when we can have an
> Expo, and invite the general public.
>
> NAPC is a long-awaited stage in the succession process.
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
> On Aug 6, 2014, at 10:59 PM, Robyn Francis <robyn at permaculture.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> > I've been following this thread and wish to clarify a few key things re
> the history of Pc Convergences.
> >
> > To Converge:  "to come together from different directions, to meet;  to
> tend towards or achieve union or a common conclusion or result"
> >
> > The first Pc Designers' Convergence was held in 1983 (nothing to do with
> astrology or any other new-age thing), then a year later the first IPC was
> held in 1984 when the nature of our gatherings, i.e. convergences, was
> discussed and agreed to.
> >
> > Originally the designers' Convergences were held first as an in-house,
> peer-to-peer gathering and sharing of PDC graduates, then followed by a
> public event sharing with the wider public. Public events have included all
> manner of formats including Symposiums, Conferences, Expo and Festivals,
> though the Conference format has generally predominated. I think the Expo
> format actually had the great percentage of non-permie participants
> attending.
> >
> > Convergences were originally light on presentations and big on
> discussion groups and forums exploring 'domains' (Aid work, urban, rural,
> pc in schools, pc education, advocacy, communications etc), we had biome
> meetings where folk got together according to climatic zones to compare
> notes and strategies, and there were also often short professional
> development workshops on specialised topics (sometimes delivered by
> external experts).  Early convergences included important discussions,
> debates and agreements about the movement (pc education/PDC curricula and
> professional integrity) and provided a forum for developing collective
> positions on important issues of a national/international significance. The
> early convergences were more focussed on strategic development of the
> movement, strengthening networks and sharing resources.
> >
> > The public event was initially more of the "sharing what we're doing
> with the wider world" stuff with some keynote and plenary sessions and lots
> of smaller group presentations and workshops.  Some of more successful
> public events have been where there's been plenty of space for permies to
> set up visual/poster displays and sell resources which facilitates a much
> richer exchange between permies, and the public and also with each other.
> >
> > I don't know why the order was reversed for these events, with the
> public conferencing happening before the in-house converging. I really miss
> the original sequence with the convergence first, as we had the chance to
> catch up & reconnect with each other, do our in-house stuff and then
> present to the wider public with a strong sense of solidarity and purpose.
> The public event was also an occasion to launch and/or announce major
> convergence outcomes to the world, sometimes together with a media release
> and at times this has actually made mention in mainstream media.
> >
> >
> > Would like to say more but have PDC session (Taiwan) starting in 2 min
> and won't have internet access again for another 2 days…
> >
> > good to see this stuff being discussed
> >
> > Robyn
> >
> >
> >
> > On 07/08/2014, at 11:35 AM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks for your clarification Scott, on the conference vs convergence
> at IPC. We are intending too that this convergence will have more of the
> elements that you mention and remain open to feedback and design input on
> making that happen!
> >>
> >> There was some attempt by another group to create a professional
> conference (which would have been more of what you are describing, Toby?),
> before this convergence. That need was and is perceived. The time line was
> too tight to pull off properly.  Next time! I'm looking forward to what
> will be produced at the next IPC, and also at how the regional convergences
> will continue to evolve.
> >>
> >> Koreen Brennan
> >> http://growpermaculture.com
> >> http://northamericanpermaculture.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 7:22 PM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture <
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I want to clarify what I mean by external and internal facing events.
> There is a history in permaculture, and tradition and ceremony that has
> evolved. Those things meet needs of those who participate, but may not meet
> the needs of some of the people who are getting into permaculture now. It's
> good to acknowledge that, and I believe that is at least part of your
> point, is that correct? I believe there are many gradients of presentation
> that can be made, to meet various needs.
> >>
> >> We have the needs of existing communities to celebrate together, to
> evolve together, and to offer mutual support. We have the needs of new
> permaculturists - which are varied but usually involve learning more about
> the subject. We have needs of people who are working in parallel movements
> but with different approaches, and different cultural paradigms. We have
> needs of people in different cultures across the planet, etc. What if we
> tailor our events to meet specific needs, and not try to be all things to
> all people in any one event? For instance, when we are trying to reach new
> permaculturists, the focus can be on providing those things that they need
> the most, and let's ask them what they feel that is. When trying to reach
> officials, let's create an event tailored to what is most real to them
> instead of trying to make our convergences fit their realities and needs
> (this is something I'm good at and would be happy to collaborate on...).
>  There are many
> >> possible events that we could create. Let's look at existing resources
> and energies (such as already existing and established events) that could
> be worked with as well. Some of us are already doing this to varying
> degrees. Let's be very clear about who our public is and what outcome we
> are seeking, and how realistic that is. And we can realize that everything
> we are doing will evolve, as the succession process continues.
> >>
> >> You are very good at finding a common language which many can relate to
> when you describe permaculture design. That is an important gift. Not
> everyone can or wants to do that - all of us have our niches. It's great to
> recognize and honor those niches and their functions, and to design the
> system so that they all can flourish. I don't think our views differ that
> much on these issues, actually. :-)  Thank you for continuing to clarify
> your concerns, it has helped me to clarify some things about the succession
> process in my mind.
> >>
> >> Koreen Brennan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On , Koreen Brennan <cory8570 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Toby,
> >>
> >> First, I wanted to clarify one detail. NAPC lodging is NOT camping only
> and never has been. We offer motel contact info on our web site for those
> who don't want to camp. Harmony Park also offers RV sites with full
> electric, etc.We are well aware that some people can't camp or don't want
> to and that has always been a part of the conversation from the beginning.
>  Here is the actual information from our web site, which has been up for a
> while now.
> >> http://northamericanpermaculture.org/lodgingaccommodations/
> >>
> >>
> >> I am totally with you Toby, regarding the importance of being more
> accessible to mainstream people who understand that change is needed and
> presenting permaculture in a way that enables them to see the power in the
> design process. I am working toward that end myself and will continue to do
> so.
> >>
> >> I was not aware of the New Age connotations of the word "convergence" -
> it's too bad that people get so fixed on word connotations but I understand
> that this is sometimes the reality. I also do understand that some people
> do not want to participate in ceremony, and I respect the diverse religious
> backgrounds and beliefs of participants.
> >> I think that the situations you describe can be addressed with design -
> without inhibiting people's desire to build community through circles, etc.
> I've brought government officials to events and explained beforehand what
> to expect to avoid the walk out phenomena, and have suggested that they
> come after the "opening circle" ceremony if they prefer to skip that. When
> inviting officials to such an event, I tend to tell them what presentations
> I think they would be most interested in and they usually appreciate that.
> >>
> >> Because the NAPC is so new, and because per survey this is what most
> people wanted, and because we are applying (to some degree) the principle
> "Start slow and small", the focus of this convergence is internal. We have
> much to discuss and work out internally. I also have envisioned, like you,
> future gatherings that would include to allied groups, organizations and
> individuals - I am very excited about the cross pollination potential that
> is already happening in some areas. Networks are an incredibly powerful
> pattern and have many uses and permutations.
> >>
> >> One thought, Toby - could it be that convergences are an internal
> function and conferences are external? And the reason officials were
> invited to an internal gathering was because there weren't any external
> facing events in that area? A scarcity? I think it's vital that we
> differentiate the various needs and functions that exist within the
> community, and not try to collapse them all into a single event. We are
> talking about succession here to some degree. We need multiple models to
> meet the growing diversity of needs in our community.  Should we be free to
> internally define what we want to experience in our gatherings, without
> outside people judging us? Will our gatherings evolve as a wider diversity
> of people join the movement? Will new "tribes" form as part of the
> succession process, to meet a widening diversity of needs? Already,
> preppers are having their own permaculture type meetings with their own
> flavor.
> >>
> >> Maybe there is something in between spiral dances/camping/drum circles,
> and uber-expensive conferences in casinos - no? I would love to be a part
> of creating a conference that would bring together permaculturists,
> officials, and other forward thinkers and solution-oriented people to work
> out some collaborative solutions. That activity is right up my alley - it
> is the type of work I did before I got into permaculture, bringing together
> diverse elements in coalitions around common interests.
> >>
> >> But wait, Bioneers does that already, right? And there are other
> already existing models doing that; perhaps more of us should attend those
> functions and be a part of them.
> >>
> >> What I'm getting from your comments (and correct me if I'm mistaken) is
> a call to more closely define needs and resources of the growing diversity
> in our networks as well as those outside of our networks who might become
> interested in permaculture, and find ways to meet the needs with the
> resources. It entails close observation of an evolving system, and
> reassessment of some of the design elements. That doesn't mean there isn't
> a place for those elements any longer - but there are new elements in the
> system; how can we integrate for the greatest yield?
> >>
> >> Koreen Brennan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 4:51 PM, Scott Pittman <
> scott at permaculture.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The IPC is an example of both of these models.  First there is a
> Conference
> >> held at a very posh Hotel or Conference center where various pundits
> hold
> >> forth on some aspect of the theme of the IPC.  In the lobbies there
> >> are
> >> various permaculture displays offering seeds, books, technology, and
> other
> >> items for sale.
> >>
> >> I usually find these "conferences" extremely boring with an occasional
> new
> >> idea or technique that makes me think and offers the occasional aha
> moment.
> >> The idea of the conference has been to interface with all strata of
> society
> >> and to spread the word of permaculture to the unwashed.  I don't think
> this
> >> has been accomplished in any significant way.  Certainly the conference
> in
> >> Havana was mostly permaculture presenters singing to the choir.  The
> >> conference in Jordan had one outstanding presenter who has
> >> done some amazing
> >> work reforesting arid lands in Africa otherwise it was pretty bland and
> a
> >> show case for Geoff Lawton and an embarrassing presentation by Bill
> >> Mollison.
> >>
> >> The convergence follows the Conference and this is a gathering of those
> who
> >> are certified through the Permaculture Design Certification course.
>  This
> >> was established to be an in house event that dealt with those things
> >> specific to permaculture as an organization and design system.  It is
> also
> >> an opportunity for interaction with old friends and companions from
> afar and
> >> a chance for anyone who wants to do show and tell of their projects and
> >> any
> >> break throughs or new technologies.
> >>
> >> While I always love seeing old friends most of the rest of it is as
> exciting
> >> as a new type of herb spiral.  I could have better spent my money just
> going
> >> to visit old friends without the pretence.
> >>
> >> I say this not to dismiss the functions of either Conferences or
> >> Convergences but to point out that so far I have only seen poorly
> organized
> >> and unimaginative events that seemed more an excuse to party than to get
> >> anything else done.  As I said before in this list I am a participant in
> >> these events because I want to see us tighten up
> >> our game.  I don't think
> >> that permaculture design has ever been applied to these events and it
> shows.
> >> For the most part we are parodying models that have been designed by
> >> corporations and professional organizations, and since we are neither we
> >> don't do a very good job.
> >>
> >> I have also attended those professional conferences outside of the
> >> permaculture realm and also find them lacking in grabbing my
> imagination and
> >> inspiring me to go out and do great things.  Mainly they seem to
> provide an
> >> enormous list of presentations that make it impossible to partake of
> but a
> >> few.
> >>
> >> Personally I am happy this is a "convergence" because I would like to
> have a
> >> serious conversation with my peers about how do we become more relevant
> in
> >> the world.  I am operating out of the same urgency that Bill Mollison
> >> conveyed when I studied with him some 30 years ago.  Thirty years have
> >> passed and our numbers have increased geometrically, thanks in large
> part to
> >> Bill's missionary zeal, but our influence has not grown proportional to
> our
> >> numbers.  Time is running out and if not us who is going to provide real
> >> solutions to the physical and social cataclysm we face. I don't see
> anyone
> >> else out there who has the tools, ethics, energy, and
> >> will that would come
> >> close to what permaculture has to offer.
> >>
> >> I am happy to hear you say, Toby, that rather than mainstream
> permaculture,
> >> you want to permaculture mainstream!  Good for you and I agree that is
> the
> >> task.
> >>
> >> If we are going to continue having these large international, national,
> >> regional gatherings then we certainly need to make them relevant to the
> task
> >> at hand rather than a poor imitation of what "mainstream" provides.
>  There
> >> is so much we need to talk about, decide and act on and my hope is that
> this
> >> NAPC will provide an atmosphere that is conducive to
> >> these tasks.
> >>
> >> Scott
> >> Permaculture Institute
> >>
> >>
> >> "To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
> >> obsolete"  Buckminster Fuller
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: permaculture [mailto:permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On
> Behalf
> >> Of Toby Hemenway
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:07 PM
> >> To: permaculture
> >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?
> >>
> >> Koreen, etc--
> >>
> >> Lots of good stuff here; thanks for all this. Mostly my comments have
> been
> >> to encourage us to up our game; to sometimes bemore professional, to
> appeal
> >> to a wider audience, and to tap into resources that permaculturists have
> >> largely ignored, and I appreciate the other efforts to do this, too.
> >> Wonderful that NAPC can be a stimulus for this and more.
> >>
> >> Re the word "convergence." Most permaculture convergences I've attended
> have
> >> been just as oriented toward lectures and talking heads as conferences,
> >> while I've been to conferences that have been dynamic and interactive. I
> >> think the distinction is primarily one of advertising and an attempt by
> >> permaculturists to say that they are doing something different. A
> conference
> >> is what you make it.
> >>
> >> For most people, the connotations of "conference" are simply a group of
> >> professionals coming together to share their work with each other,
> though
> >> usually at some classy joint.
> >>
> >> But "convergence" has strong connotations that are very class-specific.
> The
> >> first convergence that I know of was the 1987 "Harmonic Convergence," a
> New
> >> Age gathering based on an well-hyped astrological "convergence" of the
> >> planets and a misinterpretation of the Mayan calendar (like 2012) in
> which,
> >> if only enough people came together, the world would enter a new age of
> >> peace. Only hippies and new-agers hold convergences. I have nothing
> against
> >> hippies; I am one myself. But I would like permaculture to appeal to
> more
> >> than hippies, and if we market ourselves using hippie, dated New Age
> >> language, we won't do that. I run into pushback from professionals in
> many
> >> fields on our language and presentation, over and over again.
> >>
> >> At "La Convergence," a large permaculture gathering in Quebec that
> >> I just
> >> attended, a group of the most influential people there (the site
> owners, who
> >> are serious movers in the community and fiber-hemp farmers; an
> >> internationally known artist who also pioneered virtual reality
> software;
> >> one of Canada's best known environmentalists, and several others) all
> >> disliked the word "convergence, and asked why not call it a conference,
> >> because that's what it was. And these people love permaculture. Imagine
> how
> >> others feel.
> >>
> >> At a NW Pc Convergence a few years back, several high-ranking
> policymakers
> >> from Portland attended, arriving in time for the opening ceremony.
> People
> >> circled up, held hands, sang, did circle dances, and made an invocation
> to
> >> the earth goddess. That was more than the officials could stand, and
> they
> >> left before the main events began. Will they ever consider permaculture
> >> seriously again?
> >>
> >> So, if we want to reach anyone outside of those already in the
> >> counterculture, we need to stop using exclusive language and practices
> that
> >> are alienating to most of the population. Many of us are so used to
> speaking
> >> our language that we don't know how off-putting and class-specific it
> is. To
> >> attract people out of their usual mode, we need to actually be
> attractive.
> >> I'm not
> >> interested in mainstreaming permaculture, but I do want to
> >> permaculture the mainstream.
> >>
> >> And that gets to Koreen's question about events that only offer camping
> as
> >> lodging. Right there, we've just ruled out most of the population, and
> put a
> >> burden on those who are flying to attend (tent, sleeping bag, pad, etc
> on a
> >> plane? $50 bag fee right there) and on those who are older. At a
> conference,
> >> I want to be at my best, and after 2 nights on hard ground, in a crowd
> of
> >> tents with people talking till late, coughing and snoring, and waving
> >> flashlights in the dark, I'm a wreck. I was fine with that 20 years
> ago, but
> >> not now.
> >>
> >> This is all fine for NAPC this time, because we're creating an event
> >> primarily for insiders. But if we want to take advantage of
> permaculture's
> >> potential to change all of society, we need to reach out to the vast
> >> majority who don't think like us or use words like convergence and Gaia.
> >>
> >> I think permaculture has done a fine job in serving the alternative
> >> community and reaching out to low-income activists and farmers, but it's
> >> been to the exclusion of serving the rest of society. I'd like to see us
> >> develop a more professional component, more outreach, and more
> willingness
> >> to meet outsiders
> >> where they are.
> >>
> >> Toby
> >> http://patternliteracy.com
> >>
> >>
> >> On Aug 6, 2014, at 1:26 AM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture
> >> <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Toby and all,
> >>>
> >>> I totally agree that it is all solvable and it's all about design.
> Early
> >> in the process we discussed the idea of taking longer to put this event
> on
> >> so that we would have more time to implement a full design. We decided
> to go
> >> forward because we felt that the value of having a convergence this year
> >> outweighed the downside. We have engaged the design process, but we have
> >> realized that because of the time frame, we would not be able to create
> an
> >> optimum design. So the question then becomes what is most important -
> what
> >> will get the most future yield? We are still getting what we feel are
> key
> >> parts of a permaculture design for this event done.
> >>>
> >>> For the record, I feel that there are important distinctions between
> >> convergences and conferences, and we need both of
> >> them. Conferences focus on
> >> experts giving others information. They are often focused on a one-way
> flow
> >> of communication. Sometimes there are decisions made or break out
> sessions
> >> but usually not.
> >>>
> >>> Converging on a point (meaning a physical location), in order to
> >> facilitate rich energy exchanges is an ancient practice that is quite
> >> sustainable. Many indigenous people have done it at times of necessity.
> I am
> >> currently working and living at Pine Ridge Lakota reservation - the
> tribal
> >> traditions of tiospayes (small, extended family localized units)
> converging
> >> for larger gatherings go back at some length. I just
> >> attended a national
> >> level powwow and observed the patterns there.
> >>>
> >>> Convergences stack functions, creating opportunity for
> cross-pollination
> >> amongst tribes in a number of ways - historically,this has included an
> >> increased field for selection of mates, strategical alliances and
> >> agreements, and the exchange of tools, horses, seeds, culture, etc.
> Tribes
> >> might hunt together or do other things where economy of scale matters. I
> >> don't think the concepts of convergence and conference should be
> collapsed
> >> as they hold two very different functions. There are many elements of
> >> permaculture design present in the convergence
> >> model. I'm so happy to hear
> >> that Jono and others will be presenting info about the successes of the
> NE
> >> convergences and guilds as there are many regions that can potentially
> >> benefit from that information. A convergence can be many things to many
> >> people and the regional convergences have been exploring that edge. It
> will
> >> be interesting to get them together to compare notes!
> >>>
> >>> Some have voiced concerns that we aren't ready for a continental
> >> convergence. My view is that things are marching forward in a number of
> >> sectors on this planet, whether we are "ready" for them or not.
> Therefore,
> >> we perhaps need to push
> >> ourselves harder and get ourselves ready, and a
> >> continental convergence may be able to assist with that process. My
> hope is
> >> that some of us at least will look outward, at the larger patterns in
> >> society, and engage in thoughtful discussions about opportunities and
> >> challenges, strengths and weaknesses.
> >>>
> >>> I would of course like to get paid for the work of organizing - it is
> part
> >> of the third ethic of fair share.  The concept of receiving energy for
> >> valuable energy contributed is part of a sustainable system. There are
> some
> >> of us out there who will do the work whether we are paid or not when we
> >> think the job
> >> is important enough. Whether that is the best possible way to
> >> do things or not, we are filling niches that no one else has stepped up
> to
> >> fill. I'm feeling that it will be worth it on many levels, but I do
> agree
> >> that we need to tweak the finance model, not just in this one case but
> >> overall.
> >>>
> >>> And there are a number of us interested in addressing this at the
> >> convergence. Financial Permaculture is slated to be a working group
> there
> >> and it may end up breaking off into more than one. It is a huge
> subject, and
> >> there are many ways in which permaculture design can be applied more
> >> thoroughly. I hear Scott's comments
> >> about invisible structure - it is my
> >> reality that invisible structure is almost always the make-break point
> of
> >> any design.
> >>>
> >>> I'm personally interested in many permutations of cooperative models
> and
> >> looking forward to linking with others of like mind.  I think that
> financial
> >> structures in our community that truly use the tools, principles and
> >> elements of permaculture are much too few and far between (a scarcity
> that
> >> can be remedied with abundances) and am  interested in hearing about and
> >> supporting any that do. I agree that there is an abundance of money and
> we
> >> should be better at tapping into it
> >> because we will use it more wisely than
> >> many out there are doing.
> >>>
> >>> I've been talking to various bright lights in the movement about
> >> prospective cooperative models and we are coming up with some creative
> ideas
> >> that we feel meet everybody's needs. I'm very interested in connecting
> with
> >> anyone who is serious about creating better models than those being
> >> currently used in our movement. I think it would be good for all of us
> to
> >> consider how we can help each other and collaborate more than we do,
> and I
> >> feel that in order to make that happen, we need to create structures
> that
> >> facilitate that.
> >>>
> >>> I am re-studying Donella Meadows' Thinking in Systems and am reminded
> that
> >> structure and model can make huge differences in system outcomes. I
> >> personally feel that the subject of economics of convergences and
> everything
> >> else in permaculture goes much deeper than marketing ploys. I
> personally got
> >> involved with this project in large part because I want to use
> intelligent
> >> design to move to the next stage of succession, and I see how meeting
> >> together in working groups, breakouts, etc, can assist that process. We
> are
> >> continuing to design these sessions for maximum effectiveness and are
> very
> >> interested in people's suggestions,
> >> thoughts and co-creation on that design
> >> process.
> >>>
> >>> How can we bring the maximum amount of consciousness to the process of
> >> converging? What does that mean, specifically at this time in our
> history
> >> and in the succession process? What would that look like, at the
> >> convergence? What can each of us bring to this gathering that will
> >> contribute to that consciousness and to an enlightened succession
> process
> >> that results in increased yields, abundance, ethics, and sanity? These
> are
> >> questions I'm asking myself regularly as the time draws near.
> >>>
> >>> Best, Koreen
> >>> www.growpermaculture.com
> >>> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 3:12 PM, Bob Waldrop <bob at bobwaldrop.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I agree this has been a valuable thread.
> >>>
> >>> In my preevious experience in the convention business, generally you
> >>> develop your budget based on previous experience.  The absolute
> >> hardest
> >>> and most knuckle biting conference to present is a new conference, one
> >>> without an established record or constituency.  The knucklebiting is
> >>> because people always wait until the last minute to book their
> >>> attendance and every conference I was ever involved with sold a lot of
> >>> tickets in the last two weeks.  Of course "the last two weeks" is
> >>> useless or nearly so when it comes to program, because your program is
> >>> generally arranged months in advance of the final two weeks before the
> >>> event.
> >>>
> >>> I think crowd sourcing some seed money for the next event, or
> >> to fund
> >>> the planning committee on an on-going basis, would be a great idea.
> >>>
> >>> I also think that establishing a permanent organizing group is a better
> >>> idea than handing the convention off to new people in different regions
> >>> each year.  In other words, I'm assuming there will be a conversation
> at
> >>> the event about the NEXT event.  One of the options is for local
> >>> committees throughout the country to bid for the convention, the other
> >>> is to have a permanent planning committee, which possibly could work
> >>> with local groups.  I'd vote for the permanent planning committee.
> >>>
> >>> Bob Waldrop, Okie City
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 8/5/2014 1:50 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
> >>>> I'm gaining a lot from this thread and appreciate everyone's
> >> conscientious, thoughtful comments. Thomas brings up many good points,
> and I
> >> also want to get to a few of Koreen's. I think we are getting to some
> >> solutions here. A few responses:
> >>>>
> >>>> On Aug 4, 2014, at 11:27 PM, Thomas Allen <thallen at nwlink.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>    Do we put on an event with volunteer labor at a very low price so
> >> young entrants into permaculture can attend or do we put on the best
> event
> >> possible.
> >>>> Where I'm trying to go with this is: it is not either/or. It's
> possible
> >> to put on excellent events with options that low-income people can
> afford,
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> nature-compatible human habitat
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> http://www.ipermie.net
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> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> nature-compatible human habitat
>



-- 
Kia ora

[image: Picture]
*Steve Hart*
Ecology Architect
skype: stevenlawrencehart
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Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible human habitat 


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