[permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?

Jono Neiger jono at regenerativedesigngroup.com
Mon Aug 4 21:38:20 EDT 2014


The northeast U.S. regional convergence has been an incredible success as
part of our toolbox for weaving the regional network. We celebrated our
tenth year this year at MOFGA in Maine and there has been a call to
revision the event as now there are many sub-regional gatherings springing
up. Next years event will be in NYC and focused on actions to help
communities damaged by Sandy (storm).

This continental gathering grows out of a rising network at the regional
and local scales that can now support it. I had my doubts about whether we
were ready for it (I think organizing must grow from the bottom up and too
much activity from "above" is just blowing steam). But I am glad the event
is happening as there is important work we can collaborate on at the
national and continental scales; building connections, sharing resources,
diplomas, supporting teachers, designer, growers etc. Im not interested in
techniques that we can all learn about elsewhere; network building is the
core for me. I am hoping to share what we have been doing to support and
grow our regional network in the northeast (u.s.).

I wish I had more time to join the discussion. Thanks so much for all the
organizing work.

See you in Minnesota

Jono

******************
Jono Neiger
Regenerative Design Group
www.regenerativedesigngroup.com

Conway School
Graduate Program in Sustainable Landscape Planning & Design
www.csld.edu

PINE; Permaculture Institute of the Northeast
www.northeastpermaculture.org




On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture <
permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

> Neil and Lawrence, just read your thoughts - they didn't come through in
> my email so I had to go on the web site to read them. Wonderful! I'm glad I
> took the time to do so!
>
> Lawrence, I agree - there is so much great information out there in other
> countries and frankly, I feel that we need to organize better to be able to
> absorb it all - it's too much for one person to do. Working groups are a
> great model for that kind of work. I've been involved in a number of
> complex projects using working groups to break things down into manageable
> elements - when they are made up of motivated and experienced people it is
> a very strong model. Thanks much for sharing the links - it will take some
> time to absorb them but the quotes are great, to start!
>
> Neil, I agree with so much of what you say we need to work on. It's one
> reason I am sticking my neck out to get this done. I know that we will be
> more successful at addressing those problems by collaborating. I'm hoping
> that we can find channels by which we can all contribute where our skills
> and abilities are strongest, and thereby become more than the sum of parts.
> These conversations are so deep and complex that we aren't going to solve
> it at the convergence in many cases. So, what can we accomplish there? What
> are some realistic yields that can be harvested? Let's start discussing
> that now (I know that some of you already have been doing so)!
>
> Koreen Brennan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, August 4, 2014 2:36 PM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture <
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Everyone,
>
> I sincerely appreciate the dialogue - this particular topic would have
> been more effective 8 months ago though!
>
> Toby, we sincerely appreciate you and others being willing to speak for
> free. We do understand that you and others have worked hard for your
> knowledge and have worked hard at finding the best ways to share it, and we
> do value that.
>
> We have thought of most of those marketing techniques and many more (but
> true, not the kitten one...:-). The problem is that we have a certain
> number of hours in the day, and we are a small group of people who all have
> full time careers outside of this event.  And there are many other factors
> to putting this event together outside of marketing it.  We could use more
> help in getting the word out about this event!
>
> We've asked people to send out word about the event to their networks and
> contact lists and I'd like to ask readers of this conversation to do that
> as well! And I'd also like to urge people to register sooner rather than
> later if you know you are coming - it helps us secure equipment we need at
> a better price.
>
> I am thrilled that Scott and others are coming to get some real work done.
> That is exactly what has motivated me to spend the hours I've spent on
> organizing this event. I have seen a need for years for our community to
> talk more, collaborate more, and do a lot more invisible structure work. I
> am very interested in facilitating more of this work in any way that I can.
> This convergence is one action that I believe can help do that.
>
> I am not sure I understand your comments, Toby, implying that the model of
> camping in a field, meeting in circles, etc, is not working. This model has
> appeared to be moving things forward in a number of areas regionally. I
> would need to have more information to know for sure what model might be
> better. I'm definitely not convinced that a corporate style talking heads
> event, for instance, is a preferable model for a convergence, which means
> "gathering together" and also "developing something in common."
>
> This subject is something that could be discussed at the NAPC, or on-line
> here, or at various convergences, and elsewhere. I'd like to suggest that
> we use all of our design tools when addressing these invisible structures,
> as Scott mentioned, including site assessment and client interviews. In the
> short time that we have, communicating and compiling site assessment
> (research) might be all we have time for. If we haven't done sufficient
> site assessment on some of these issues, I'd like to suggest that the
> conversation revolve around how we can best get that done, so that we have
> some actual hard data to go by (and I'm speaking generally here, about any
> issue). We can (and I believe, should) continue the conversations after the
> convergence. It may take longer in the short run, but in the long run, we
> should end up being more effective.
>
> One yield of this convergence is that more conversations are happening
> about these matters already. Even if we didn't meet at all - the fact that
> people are already talking about some of the major issues facing our
> movement, sharing information and successes, is a really good thing.
>
> One thing I'm excited about is that at least two regional convergence
> organizers will be sharing some of their successes with creating various
> forms of collaboration in their areas. This cross-pollination is so very
> valuable, in my mind. Because of the rapid growth of permaculture, there
> are many areas of the country that are in a "pioneer" stage. With
> thoughtful design, we can bring them more rapidly to the next stage of
> succession (for those who are interested), by compiling and sharing
> successes in more established areas.
>
> At this point, the prices are not going to change, but we can consider the
> viewpoints expressed here for next time. I really appreciate Loren's
> understanding of what we are attempting to provide and its value!  That
> means a lot, and feels like some real people care. :-)  I like to envision
> a permaculture world where we really have each other's back. I know it
> exists in pockets, but would love to see that expand, with even more
> thought about how we can pull each other up, and the entire subject with
> us, in the process.
>
> I would like to remind people that one area people can contribute and
> receive something of value back is by sponsoring the event.
> http://northamericanpermaculture.org/become-a-napc-sponsor/.
>
> We will survey attendees after the convergence, seeking feedback on what
> they feel could be improved. I hope you all will fill them out, especially
> if you have constructive suggestions for next time.
>
> We continue to reach out to the community to get feedback on what people
> feel will assist the process to be as successful as possible. This is your
> opportunity to have design input - we still have a lot of room to
> accomodate suggested activities, working groups, etc.
>
> I am of the school that you get what you put attention on, so I'd like to
> keep my attention on putting on as meaningful an event as possible that
> will aid the succession process, help increase career opportunities and
> successes for all of us, open more doors for permaculture, increase its
> effectiveness wherever it is used, etc!  Any and all constructive
> suggestions toward that end are greatly appreciated. Toby, it would be
> great if you were willing to share something of people having successes
> using permaculture design in other career pathways. I'm aware of some of
> those stories, and they are wonderful.
>
> I'd also like to put an intention and affirmation out there that those of
> us attending the convergence will keep a focus on seeking areas where we
> can agree, where we can work together, where we can help each other achieve
> our highest goals as designers, as dreamers, and as composters of cultures.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Koreen Brennan
>
>
> On Monday, August 4, 2014 12:17 PM, Scott Pittman <scott at permaculture.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Bill taught that permaculture was divided into two broad categories:
> "visible structures" and "invisible" structures.  Visible structures
> represented "what to do" and
> invisible structures presented "how to do it".
>
> I think this discussion definitely falls into the invisible category.
> Unfortunately less time has been spent on all invisible structures than has
> been devoted to "herb spirals"!  It is a big design problem that most often
> reverts to the models we have been indoctrinated/innoculated with since
> pre-school.  It is the Wal-Mart model or the 1st National Bank model,
> neither of which should have a place in permaculture design.
>
> I am always (well, less and less) surprised that when I bring up one of my
> favorite themes "Is permaculture capitalism an oxymoron" that I have to
> wade
> through a torrent of outraged red-baiting before the discussion can begin.
> I am heartened that few of the pc teachers and designers I know, with the
> exception of the prince and duke of permaculture and a few others, are full
> on capitalists.  Most of them make a modest living, work
> hard, and introduce
> major change within their client base and classes.
>
> It has become a little tedious listening to the incessant kvetching about
> we
> are not reaching enough people, or that we need to mainstream pc, or we
> need
> a pc president; we have grown at an incredible pace since I joined this
> motley band in 1985.  I am pleased with our influence on the design
> professions, and the educational system and we have been able to do that
> while maintaining our integrity and ethical bottom line.  That doesn't mean
> that we have a lot of work before us but that what we have accomplished in
> the face of our culture, that would be abhorred if it understood what we
> are
> up to, is pretty phenomenal.
>
> There are still those who a insist that only through teaching 60,000 people
> at a time with low quality on line courses are we going to become relevant.
> Or that we have to employ marketing gimmicks in order to
> fill our classes.
> We still have a few who predate on the work of others to increase their
> audience and profit.  I spend a lot of my "volunteer" time trying to shine
> a
> light on these dark practices while at the same time trying to teach how to
> maintain an abundant lifestyle without reverting to such tactics.  I don't
> believe that paradigm shift is brought about by applying the tactics of the
> old paradigm; that is why Moses was not allowed into the Promised Land.
>
> I think it is this paucity of real discussion and teaching of the invisible
> structures that has allowed the continuing complaint that "there is not
> enough ....." fill in the blank.  Not enough students? Not enough design
> clients? Not enough money?, Not enough food?  Every one of these "not
> enoughs" can be addressed with permaculture design and should be.  We as an
> international movement have to begin the process of designing "our"
> new
> world and we have to start with some serious discussions about how we set
> about this task.
>
> For me this NAPC is the perfect venue for having serious talks and
> resolutions about who we are and where we want to go.  I am not too excited
> about the "big tent" events but more interested in those discussions we
> never get to have in the larger body of permaculture.  I was deeply
> disappointed in the Jordanian and the Cuban IPC because I spent a lot of
> money to join with our international body which, ultimately, only managed
> to
> decide where the next IPC was going to be held, I mean, come on!  I
> compounded my guilt load of carbon spewing to do this?  It could have been
> done by internet poll!  Hopefully the NAPC will encourage a bit more heavy
> lifting.
>
> I believe that the major obstacle to this convergence has been time; it
> takes a hell of a lot of coordination and conversation to put
> something like
> this together and I am humbled by the valiant effort expended by all of you
> who have been developing webpages, facebook, food, venue, programming, and
> response to whiners, like me.  Thank you, I support you and look forward to
> seeing you in late August.
>
> I would like to warn everyone that I am going to Minnesota to get some work
> done and I expect others to work with me.
>
>                     -- 0  --
>
> "To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
> obsolete"  Buckminster Fuller
> -----Original Message-----
> From: permaculture [mailto:permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On
> Behalf
> Of loren luyendyk
> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 12:32 AM
> To: Permaculture
> Listserve
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?
>
> I think they also thought of most of these ideas on how to make the event
> affordable, except maybe the kitten extortion.  That is very creative.
> Perhaps next time you could be on the fundraising committee :)
>
> IMO- it boils down to time.  If "we" all had volunteered to help organize
> this it could have happened the way you suggest, which sounds great but
> complicated.  But there's only so much time in the day.  I think the
> organizing committee is doing tremendously and it will only get better.
> I don't think its too late for us to offer gifts to the organizers, either.
> They may be too selfless to ask but I was serious about taking up a
> collection at the conference for those that have put in countless hours.
>
> If you have any connections with donors, then bring it!  This is a team
> effort and I am sure nobody will object to money
> coming in.  Its never
> too late!
>
> Loren Luyendyk
> (805)-452-8249
> Accredited Permaculture Teacher, PRI-AUS
> ISA Certified Arborist WE-7805A
> www.sborganics.com
> www.surferswithoutborders.org
> www.globalpermaculture.com
>
>
>
>
> > From: toby at patternliteracy.com
> > Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 22:41:58 -0700
> > To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?
> >
> > Loren, Koreen, Wes, et al--
> >
> > Thanks for the thoughtful remarks, and Koreen for your constant openness.
> >
> > Of course $150 is a lot for some people. Those are the people that we
> make
> sure get in for free or really cheaply, and pay for their travel. My point
> was that there are ways to
> design so it is affordable for everyone, without
> defaulting to "must charge lowest price possible." There are many models
> out
> there, and what's more, we as brilliant designers could have designed a
> new,
> even better model. It looks like you are still only seeing "must all be
> cheap" or "must all be expensive," or "could have charged a bit more," and
> I
> invite you to move off that whole axis, go 3D. So, find donors. Get
> matching
> grants. Have multiple tiers. Ask people to pay what they usually pay for
> really great conferences. (Bioneers is $495 without meals or lodging; that
> "elite" would kick down a bunch!) Get the affluent to fund half a ticket
> for
> someone else. Ask who has air miles for travel. Charter some buses and pick
> people up. Raffle some free tickets for $10 a chance. Do a fundraiser. Give
> work trades to help the organizers. Have a bake sale. Post a picture of a
> kitten and say you will kill it if people don't
> send money. There are a ton
> of ways! Isn't there's a permaculture principle about doing important
> things
> multiple ways? So we coulda combined a bunch of them.
> >
> > I did not ask to be paid for presenting at NAPC. It was obvious there was
> no budget for it. I only charge when people can afford it and there's
> enough
> to share. I  also help arrange so the income will be there. I've actually
> thought about all the stuff you mentioned, Loren; I charge a sliding scale
> right down to zero, consider a great deal of other yields besides money,
> love that I am lucky enough to help my partners prosper, and try to set it
> up so everybody wins very big, including attendees. AFAIK all the other
> lucky "elite" do too. (I try not to be both stupid and a greedhead at the
> same time.)
> >
> > Like I said, it's not about paying a speakers fee. It's about valuing
> people's work in some form. Of course the organizers put
> zillions of hours
> into it, and I'm very grateful. That's how conferences are. But It would
> have been great to use the collective generative power to let a whole bunch
> of people--not necessarily the speakers, but certainly the staff and many
> more--go home with enough money to do something good with it, and to create
> a nest egg for great projects. "One low price" rules out those gifts.
> >
> > NAPC is a different event from Pc Voices, yes, but so far it looks like
> every regional convergence I've attended: camping in a field, bringing in
> the usual crowd, having lots of panels and discussions, and charging one,
> really low price "so everyone can afford it." I confess that some of my
> reaction here is my disappointment that a different model wasn't chosen--
> has there been no succession in 30 years? But I really, truly hope that a
> lot comes of NAPC.
> >
> > Topic shift: The fact that a few high rollers are
> perceived as getting
> most of the work (where I live we distribute it) tells me that we're still
> a
> tiny group and still on the fringe. Niches are few and simple. It tells me
> that there are still few jobs in teaching and designing, so the pattern
> literate will look for employment elsewhere or create a new niche. We need
> permaculture-trained lawyers, repair people, dental hygienists, mechanics,
> carpenters, security guards, investment managers, and a lot of other
> professions and trades, much more than we need more teachers and landscape
> designers. Let's have that conversation, and many others, at NAPC.
> >
> > My intention is to have a great time at NAPC and help make a bunch of
> great things come of it.
> >
> > Toby
> > http://patternliteracy.com
> >
> >
> > On Aug 3, 2014, at 7:04 PM, loren luyendyk <loren at sborganics.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Toby- you bring up good points, but I think you may be missing an
> important one.  This is not about scarcity, it is about reality.  $150 is a
> lot of money to some people, especially when you consider travel to get to
> the event.
> > >
> > > I was one proponent of keeping the cost of the event low enough so that
> folks from "the rest of the Americas" could join (especially after the way
> overpriced Cuba IPC).  This event is not just for well-to-do USAliens, it
> is
> the NORTH AMERICAN Permaculture Convergence.  There are other countries in
> North America other than the USA and Canada, "the rest of them" (ie Mexico)
> will sadly not be equally represented because of- you guessed it- money.
> > >
> > > And what
> about the rest of the PC movement, the other 99%?  Those who
> are just getting started, or those who are not as fortunate as some of us,
> who may have travels expenses that far exceed the cost of the event- so in
> effect it becomes a $1000+ affair?  Many in the PC movement deliberately
> avoid making money (reduce the need to earn) because they are not into
> supporting a degenerative, fiat based currency system.  Also, many are on
> the frontier, are pioneers in their area (geographically) or field, who are
> waiting for the rest of the world to catch up.  For this reason they may
> not
> earn what they deserve, or will soon.
> > >
> > > It is easy for us to type on our $1200 computers how we should be
> compensated for our work in order to obtain a yield (ie pay off the
> computer).   Is money the only yield here?  What about inspiring the up and
> comers?  What about sharing what works and
> what doesn't with your peers?
> What about tithing?  I can think of dozens of other yields that will be
> harvested that far outweigh the speakers fee.
> > >
> > > I am honored to be a speaker at this event.  I am honored to do it for
> free.  I get paid very well with my work as a permaculture designer and
> teacher, and I am able to subsidize my trip to the NAPC with this income.
> I
> am glad to support this historic event in this way.
> > >
> > > Furthermore, not everyone can garner as high a speaker fee as you,
> Toby.
> Not that you don't deserve it, its just not equal.  Also, many of us don't
> get called to speak at these events because we haven't written books or are
> not very good at promoting ourselves.  Its all good, this is just reality.
> Though not yours, obviously.
> > >
> > > I think PC Voices was a great event for the PC movement- taking it
> to
> the masses, the mainstream, the capitalist patriarchal model- the ones who
> need to get this info.  But PC Voices was HEAVILY subsidized by John Roulac
> as Wes noted, without his help it probably wouldn't have been such a
> success.  (Perhaps we could have had some sort of sliding scale for the
> NAPC
> also.)  I personally am glad the PC Voices was successful, and that the PC
> Elite was able to make some good cash speaking.  But to me the NAPC is not
> about the elite, is is about the other 99%.
> > >
> > > I hate to phrase it this way, but I do see PC becoming the model of
> capitalism that Scott warned us of- where a small group of the regular
> speakers are getting 99% of the speaking gigs and design jobs, while the
> other 1% subsidize their PC career with outside work.  To me the NAPC is
> about sharing this wealth- of giving those who normally don't get the calls
> up on
> stage.  (I know several speakers who have A LOT less field experience
> than me, who are full on teaching because of a few good career moves.  I am
> not bitter because I have enough, I am just making an observation.  Is this
> what we want to create for PC?)
> > >
> > > I have a solution/suggestion.  For those who feel that they should be
> paid to speak at the NAPC, why don't you put a donation jar at the podium,
> or pass the hat during your talk?  I am sure nobody would object.  I tell
> you why I wouldn't- because I would feel like a dick unless I really needed
> it.
> > >
> > > How much do you need in order to feel motivated to speak?  This to me
> is
> the real scarcity situation going on here-  feeling like you cannot afford
> to speak for free, for fear of denigrating your own work.  I was delighted
> to see Darren Doherty, one of the world's leading PC
> Designers, take the
> stage at the last minute during the IPC Conference in Cuba- for free.  This
> to me shows that he has the 3rd ethic firmly rooted in his heart.
> > >
> > > Furthermore, I suggest we take up donations for the organizers during
> the event, who apparently are doing a lot of this work for free- they
> deserve this support more than speakers IMO.  This was one unintended
> consequence of keeping the event fees so low (agreed not the best design,
> but this is the first in a series hopefully so there are always better next
> times).  I agree that we could have charged another $50 and most people
> wouldn't have felt the pang, but why not save that for those who can
> voluntarily donate to the event organizers, those who can afford it?  Like
> you and I, Toby.
> > >
> > > I am good for $50.  Heck, lets make it $100.  How's that for
> abundance
> consciousness?
> > >
> > > Loren Luyendyk
> > > (805)-452-8249
> > > Accredited Permaculture Teacher, PRI-AUS
> > > ISA Certified Arborist WE-7805A
> > > www.sborganics.com
> > > www.surferswithoutborders.org
> > > www.globalpermaculture.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> From: lakinroe at silcom.com
> > >> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 14:32:34 -0700
> > >> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?
> > >>
> > >> hi
> > >> i agree with Toby i agree but what scale would be fair for each
> speaker
> that presented , my understanding when NAPC was first
> organized/conceived
> that they did not want taking heads , it would be a series of
> panels/circles
> that you could or could not be part of if you attended, that has changed i
> think,
> > >>
> > >> i love Permaculture Voices and supported Diego from the start with
> hand
> outs are our events and also at many festivals. I felt with needed a
> professional conference for PC. I knew he would be sweating it as PC
> community waits till the last moment to register. John Roulac of Nutiva
> save
> the day by subsidizing  a  low fee that drew the large numbers in the end.
> The end result is that Diego was able to have a successful event and now is
> willing to host this next year.
> > >> It could of failed and never happen again as many PC events get
> starved
> because of lack of support. the International Permaculture Conference
> /Convergence is always facing a lack of financial support for all the
> same
> reasons Toby has mentioned.
> > >>
> > >> I agree everyone need to be part of sharing economy and yes share
> resources  to create a economy that supports the change
> > >>
> > >> more later thanks Toby
> > >> wes
> > >> ps at Santa Barbara Permaculture Network we have always paid PC
> teachers and travel expenses since our first event in 1997 .
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:09 PM, Toby Hemenway <toby at patternliteracy.com>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Aug 1, 2014, at 12:55 PM, Michael Pilarski via permaculture
> <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Can you imagine how much it would cost
> > >>>> if we had to pay each one of them what they currently get paid for
> giving a
> > >>>> workshop or keynote speech!?  . . .  We don't want to set up a
> > >>>> hierarchy. Come because you are excited about participating ... not
> because you
> > >>>> are getting paid.
> > >>>
> > >>> Since you mention it publicly, I gather that a number of presenters
> have asked if they can be compensated for their work. (Warning: rant ahead,
> and Skeeter, this isn't personal--since I've gotten, like, 8 copies of this
> notice, it's repeatedly hit one of my hot buttons.)
> > >>>
> > >>> What if a corporation or plantation boss had said, "Can you imagine
> how much our products would cost if we paid our workers fairly?" Permies
> don't
> get a pass on that just because we're doing good work; corporations
> think they are too. It's also a guilt-tripping argument, which is kind of
> embarrassing.
> > >>>
> > >>> Here's the answer to the question: Given the expected 500 attendees,
> another $50 would generate $25,000. More than enough to pay everyone well,
> including the hard-working organizers. Since the fee structure of NAPC
> already has a set of $50 tiers, one more would have fit in fine.
> > >>>
> > >>> People aren't asking to be paid just to get money. It's hard work to
> put a talk together (takes me 40-80 hours for a 90-minute talk), and if our
> work yields no return, we've designed a bad system that burns us out.
> Remember "Get a yield?" Not to do so is unsustainable. We should be
> modeling
> abundance, not scarcity. "Here, come be a permaculturist, stay broke, live
> in scarcity, and get nothing for your hard
> work but good feelings!"
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> The price of NAPC is ludicrously low. $150 for 3 days of
> presentations, workshops, awesome conversation, meals, and camping? That's
> just nuts! For $50 more, NAPC could have compensated everyone well for
> their
> work and had broader appeal. And at a regular conference rate, we could
> have
> funded the projects we'll conceive there. I know a lot of people who aren't
> attending because it's just the usual folks, camping in a field, like every
> convergence.
> > >>>
> > >>> It feels like the guiding principle for NAPC is "let's spend as
> little
> as possible so we can charge as little as possible." That's a brutally
> limiting design ethic. Imagine how much richer the event would be if the
> ethic was, "How do we make this as awesome as we can, pay everyone fairly
> for their work, and still find ways for everyone to afford
> it?"
> > >>>
> > >>> One of many ways is how Permaculture Voices did it: A block of very
> expensive, full-price tickets (which sold well because not every
> permaculturist is poor!), blocks at half and one-quarter price, and a large
> block of free tickets. They had 650 very diverse attendees, and a
> presenters
> budget of, I estimate, over $100,000 to pay 70 speakers very well. There
> are
> many ways to design it to be affordable for all, beyond "do it as cheap as
> we can."
> > >>>
> > >>> When 500 people come together, they can generate a surplus that will
> provide enough for everyone. How did NAPC miss that resource? (I assume,
> since NAPC isn't paying others for working, that NAPC staff, too, are all
> doing this for free).
> > >>>
> > >>> It's not that there is a "hierarchy," as the letter puts it. There is
> true diversity in skills, experience, and
> income. To deny that reality, to
> not take advantage of it, is poor design.
> > >>>
> > >>> Please, let's get over the idea that everyone in permaculture is
> poor,
> that there is no money out there, that this is a world of scarcity. What
> kind of a vision to hold is that? This is a huge limitation for
> permaculture
> that we have to break out of!
> > >>>
> > >>> Maybe we need a session at NAPC on how to break the scarcity
> mentality
> of permaculture.
> > >>>
> > >>> Toby
> > >>> http://patternliteracy.com
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> permaculture mailing list
> > >>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> list maintenance:
> > >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >>> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > >>> Google message archive search:
> > >>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > >>> http://www.ipermie.net
> > >>>
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > >>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> nature-compatible human habitat
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> permaculture mailing list
> > >> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> list
> maintenance:
> > >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > >> Google message archive search:
> > >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > >> http://www.ipermie.net
> > >> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of
> landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> nature-compatible human habitat
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> maintenance:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > > Google message archive search:
> > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > http://www.ipermie.net
> > > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> nature-compatible human habitat
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> maintenance:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > http://www.ipermie.net
> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> nature-compatible human habitat
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers
> -- who are designing ecological land use systems
> with integrated elements
> for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible
> human habitat
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban
> lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> nature-compatible human habitat
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> nature-compatible human habitat
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> nature-compatible human habitat
>


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