[permaculture] Permaculture recommendation for Deep GreenResistance

John D'hondt dhondt at eircom.net
Wed Jul 3 17:27:21 EDT 2013


Interesting line of thought Chris even if I do feel we are running out of 
time.
John


> Kelda,
>
> I am not entirely comfortable with the concept of activism, which is one 
> of
> the reasons permaculture appeals to me so much. I did read the excerpt of
> the DGR book, and a few other things on their site, because I do share the
> frustration and despair they express at the way human civilization
> continues to consume resources and destroy ecosystems. I am not 
> necessarily
> arguing against DGR, but vocalizing the internal conflict I feel when I
> read what they advocate.
>
> My main concern with most activism, as I have seen and experienced it, is
> related to the basic principle that "resistance" to a thing actually adds
> energy to it. I have rarely witnessed someone win an argument, where the
> goal is to use words to convince someone that their opinion or actions are
> incorrect. More often, these interactions escalate and cause people on 
> both
> sides of the issue to do and say things they regret later, when their
> emotions fade. Rather than having the therapeutic effect I have heard
> touted, I find these exercises of anger and control to be exhausting and
> demoralizing. To each their own, I do not criticize activists for their
> personal choices. This is simply my response to activists who sneer at
> permaculturists for "checking out" and ignoring the problems. Walking away
> from industrialized society, or creating alternatives to it, is a vote of
> no confidence, an act of creation rather than destruction, and sometimes
> more powerful than resistance.
>
> It seems as if DGR has a bone to pick with patriarchy. I am a feminist, 
> but
> I don't see what that has to do with the survival of the planet. Some of
> the species we would like to save are patriarchal; by that same token, 
> some
> of the most successful human experiments in sustainable societies are
> patriarchal. The Anabaptist peoples (Amish, Mennonite, Hutterite) are
> examples of cultures that love and thrive without heavy reliance on
> extraction of natural resources. Most of the Israeli kibbutzim, after
> beginning as egalitarian collectives with complete gender equality, have
> now reverted to more traditional gender roles, yet have sustained a more
> harmonious way of life for a few generations. It seems counterproductive 
> to
> attack ways of life that are, by many measures, far superior to the ones
> which are truly destroying ecosystems. This just seems like a distraction
> from the message of saving the biosphere, in my opinion. I don't see what
> is gained by throwing the baby out with the bathwater, not speaking of
> violence or oppression, but definitions of gender and lineage that are
> accepted or sacred to some groups. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the
> message there.
>
> Activism is an attempt to control the actions of other beings to please a
> few, which ironically seems to be the primary complaint against our
> mainstream society and governments. I guess it is all a matter of
> perspective, and whether you think anyone should have the right to control
> the actions of others, or under what circumstances. The kind of direct
> action that seems to be advocated by DGR has the potential to be violent,
> and destructive of the property and works of others. This certainly 
> doesn't
> seem to be an evolved, egalitarian response to the depredations of a
> destructive industrial culture - destroy in kind, act as the chosen 2% who
> know what is best for all the sheep?
>
> Permaculture is a systems approach to design based on natural systems that
> endure, and we are designing a better civilization already. It may
> sometimes seen that we are running out of time, but that is a short view
> and a fatalistic one. I think most of us has a feel for what behaviors are
> sustainable or regenerative versus degenerative and destructive, but none
> of us can tell the future. We do what is in front of us, what feels right,
> and sometimes that may be contrary to zoning ordinances or other 
> meddlesome
> government regulations. I just can't see my way to blowing shit up, when I
> don't have the will of the people behind me. The good news about
> unsustainable behavior is that it can't last forever. Every time I opt out
> of consumer behavior, waste, and reach out to my family and community, I 
> am
> starving the beast and showing a better way. I feel permaculture is
> working, and our mother will recover from our excesses in her own time. If
> we watch with the patience of trees, we can see it unfolding.
>
> Thanks for sharing that, I really appreciate the food for thought.
>
> -Chris
> On Jul 1, 2013 8:09 PM, "Lawrence London" <lfljvenaura at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 12:51 PM,  <kelda at riseup.net> wrote:
>> > Hi!
>> >
>> > So the permaculture news from Tacoma, WA is that a lot of us have been
>> > reading the book Deep Green Resistance and highly recommend that other
>> > permaculturists do so. The authors specifically critique permaculture,
>> and
>> > (though I'd love to sit down with Lierre Keith over a cup of tea to 
>> > argue
>> > some specifics) I think they bring up some really good points about how
>> > the Permaculture movement could better serve a true culture of
>> resistance.
>> > Ie, how it ISN'T direct action against what is destroying the planet, 
>> > but
>> > could be.
>>
>>
>> How  about Deep Green Cohesion and bonding for global permaculture
>> community
>> action toward positive goals that serve to help people survive. Who
>> has time to worry about
>> how to join and contribute toward a resistance movement when one's
>> basic needs have to be met: food, shelter, medical, safety and
>> security, education and free time spent in personal pursuits and
>> immersion in Nature, walk in woods, watch sunset, fish, garden,
>> meditate. Personally I endorse any movement that encourages avoidance
>> of and alternatives to (meditate, garden, code websites, cook, etc.)
>> alcohol, drugs and tobacco (none of those three ever, the human body
>> was not meant to assimilate such things, ignore all excuses to the
>> contrary.
>>
>> On the other hand the three ethics of permaculture seem to indicate
>> that a Green Resistance would be a natural thing for permaculturists
>> to become involved with. If we don't then who will?
>>
>>
>>
>> > How has this changed things for me? Instead of being under the illusion
>> > that my permaculture demonstration projects (or my bike-riding, or my
>> > shorter showers) will cause any big change as fast as we need it, I'm
>> > thinking more now of how to create garden networks that can actually
>> serve
>> > as a totally alternate food systems. Inspiring hope and love for planet
>> > are nice and all, but we need different physical structures fast.
>>
>> How do you want to create those networks, Kelda? What do you want to
>> accomplish?
>>
>> I could create a network structure online if people would use it.
>>
>> This is something already in place and I am a member of it, Durham
>> Locally Grown.
>> LocallyGrown.Net -- Small Farms Making a Difference
>> http://locallygrown.net/
>>
>> I have suggested creating a national, product and services,
>> production, marketing and distribution network
>> comprised of the smallest conceivable nodes making up a national
>> aggregate. LocallyGrown and Craigslist are similar.
>> My network would have more functions and ultimately provide the USA
>> with an alternative marketplace for goods and services, barter, sell,
>> trade,
>> all consistent with existing local, state and federal tax law and all
>> other regulations.
>>
>> LL
>>
>> > Also, in the most recent permaculture course I taught, I for the first
>> > time said in lecture about Ethics and specifically Water topics "So 
>> > don't
>> > tell me any specifics, but if you can Care for the Earth by blowing up 
>> > a
>> > dam than by all means do so". At which of course the class laughed and
>> > tangentalized into how best to care for salmon runs/siltation until I
>> > brought them back to the topic at hand.
>> >
>> > Anyway. Deep Green Resistance. Read the book! It's not for everyone in
>> the
>> > permaculture movement, but it's very much for a lot of us. I look 
>> > forward
>> > to some great conversation about it with permies in the future.
>>
>> I hope so. Onward.
>> >
>> > Kelda
>>
>> LL
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