[permaculture] Article on surviving Argentina's economic collapse
dhondt at eircom.net
Sat Mar 3 18:28:06 EST 2012
I was not going to react to this topic but seeing that you feel probably
hurt by the fairly agressive reaction from people advocating cooperation and
peaceful coexistance Trudie I now changed my mind.
I am all in favor of cooperation don't get me wrong. And I like seeing
workers take over a closed factory and do something useful with it but I
fear the matematics of the cooperation video might not tally completely.
If tens or hundreds of thousands loose their job then there is some hope if
a few hundred get the wheels turning again for themselves. But what about
the rest? Maybe more positive thinking will see them right?
I can only congratulate the hopeful on the quality of their exellent
neighbors but I have serious worries about my own situation in Ireland.
isn,t the point that everyone reacts differently to crisis?. Admit it to
yourself that some people carry guns live with guns use guns regularly
anyone telling about their life in argentina is bound to trip over
themselves and make some errors while explaining instead of criticizing the
writer you can just choose to glean what you can from his viewpoint and
experience dont do what some do to permacultuists -throw out everything he
/she says and not have sympathy, empathy for the situatin he finds himsef
in. i hope you dont plan to say im a fake or"only an american would say
that"if i wrie something and one more thing he is helping his
neighbors-us-by being willing to tell what he percieves i personally see
many examples and cannot explain myself i read this list and almost never
make a comment i have learned a hell of a lot though from all the persons
who take the time to write. Trudie Redding austin tx
On Friday, March 2, 2012, wildedges at gmail.com <wildedges at gmail.com> wrote:
> Here is an excerpt from part 1:
> URBAN OR COUNTRY?
> Someone once asked me how did those that live in the country fare. If they
> were better off than city dwellers. As always there are no simple answers.
> Wish I could say country good, city bad, but I can’t, because if I have to
> be completely honest, and I intend to be so, there are some issues that
> have to be analyzed, especially security. Of course those that live in the
> country and have some land and animals were better prepared food-wise. No
> need to have several acres full of crops. A few fruit trees, some animals,
> such as chickens, cows and rabbits, and a small orchard were enough to be
> light years ahead of those in the cities. Chickens, eggs and rabbits would
> provide the proteins, a cow or two for milk and cheese, some vegetables
> fruit plants covered the vegetable diet, some eggs or a rabbit could be
> traded for flour to make bread and pasta or sugar and salt.
> Of course that there are exceptions, for example, some provinces up north
> have a desert climate, and it almost never rains. It is almost impossible
> to live off the land, and animals require food and water you have to buy.
> Those guys had it bad; no wonder the northern provinces suffer the most in
> my country. Those that live in cities, well they have to manage as they
> can. Since food prices went up about 200%-300%. People would cut expenses
> wherever they could so they could buy food. Some ate whatever they could;
> they hunted birds or ate street dogs and cats, others starved. When it
> comes to food, cities suck in a crisis. It is usually the lack of food or
> the impossibility to acquire it that starts the rioting and looting when
> When it comes to security things get even more complicated. Forget about
> shooting those that mean you harm from 300 yards away with your MBR [main
> battle rifle]. Leave that notion to armchair commandos and 12 year old
> that pretend to be grown ups on the internet.
> Some facts:
> 1) Those that want to harm you/steal from you don’t come with a pirate
> waving over their heads.
> 2) Neither do they start shooting at you 200 yards away.
> 3) They won’t come riding loud bikes or dressed with their orange, convict
> just escaped from prison jump suits, so that you can identify them the
> better. Nor do they all wear chains around their necks and leather
> If I had a dollar for each time a person that got robbed told me “They
> looked like NORMAL people, dressed better than we are”, honestly, I would
> have enough money for a nice gun. There are exceptions, but don’t expect
> them to dress like in the movies.
> 4) A man with a wife and two or three kids can’t set up a watch. I don’t
> care if you are SEAL, SWAT or John Freaking Rambo, no 6th sense is going
> tell you that there is a guy pointing a gun at your back when you are
> trying to fix the water pump that just broke, or carrying a big heavy bag
> of dried beans you bought that morning.
> The best alarm system anyone can have on a farm are dogs. But dogs can get
> killed and poisoned. A friend of mine had all four dogs poisoned on his
> farm one night, they all died. After all these years I learned that even
> though the person that lives out in the country is safer when it comes to
> small time robberies, that same person is more exposed to extremely
> home robberies. Criminals know that they are isolated and their feeling of
> invulnerability is boosted. When they assault a country home or farm, they
> will usually stay there for hours or days torturing the owners. I heard it
> all: women and children getting raped, people tied to the beds and
> with electricity, beatings, burned with acetylene torches. Big cities
> aren’t much safer for the survivalist that decides to stay in the city. He
> will have to face express kidnappings, robberies, and pretty much risking
> getting shot for what’s in his pockets or even his clothes.
> So, where to go? The concrete jungle is dangerous and so is living away
> from it all, on your own. The solution is to stay away from the cities but
> in groups, either by living in a small town-community or sub division, or
> if you have friends or family that think as you do, form your own small
> community. Some may think that having neighbors within “shouting” distance
> means losing your privacy and freedom, but it’s a price that you have to
> pay if you want to have someone to help you if you ever need it. To those
> that believe that they will never need help from anyone because they will
> always have their rifle at hand, checking the horizon with their scope
> every five minutes and a first aid kit on their back packs at all times….
> Grow up.
> What ever sort of scenario you are dealing with, services are more than
> likely to either suffer in quality or disappear all together. Think ahead
> of time; analyze possible SHTF scenarios and which service should be
> affected by it in your area. Think about the most likely scenario but also
> think outside the box. What’s more likely? A tornado? But a terrorist
> attack isn’t as crazy as you though it would be a few years ago, is it?
> Also analyze the consequences of those services going down. If there is no
> power then you need to do something about all that meat you have in the
> fridge, you can dry it or can it. Think about the supplies you would need
> for these tasks before you actually need them. You have a complete guide
> how to prepare the meat on you computer… how will you get it out of there
> if there is no power? Print everything that you consider important.
> No one can last too long without water. The urban survivalist may find
> the water is of poor quality, in which case he can make good use of a
> filter, or that there is no water available at all. When this happens, a
> large city were millions live will run out of bottled water within
> In my case, tap water isn’t very good. I can see black little particles
> some other stuff that looks like dead algae. Taste isn’t that bad. Not
> but I know that there are parts of the country where it is much worse. To
> be honest, a high percentage of the country has no potable water at all.
> If you can build a well, do so, set it as your top of the list priority as
> a survivalist.
> Water comes before firearms, medicines and even food. Save as much water
> you can. Use plastic bottles, refill soda bottles and place them in a cool
> place, preferably inside a black garbage bag to protect it from sun light.
> The water will pick some plastic taste after a few months, but water that
> tastes a little like plastic is far way better than no water at all. What
> ever the kind of SHTF scenario you are dealing with, water will suffer.
> In my case the economical crash created problems with the water company,
> that reduces the maintenance and quality in order to reduce costs and keep
> their income in spite of the high prices they have to pay for supplies and
> equipment, most of which comes from abroad, and after the 2001 crash,
> 3 times more. As always, the little guy gets to pay for it. Same would go
> for floods or chemical or biological attacks. Water requires delicate care
> and it will suffer when TSHTF in one way or another. In this case, when
> still have tap water, a quality filter is in order, as well as a pump if
> you can have one. A manual pump would be ideal as well if possible.
> Estimate that you need a approximately a gallon per person per day. Try to
> have at least two-four weeks worth of water. More would be preferable.
> I spent WAY to much time without power for my own taste. Power has always
> been a problem in my country, even before the 2001 crisis. The real
> starts when you spend more than just a few hours without light. Just after
> the SHTF in 2001 half the country went without power for 3 days. Buenos
> Aires was one big dark grave. People got caught on elevators, food rots;
> hospitals that only had a few hours worth of fuel for their generators ran
> out of power. Without power, days get to be a lot shorter. Once the sun
> sets there is not much you can do. I read under candle light and
> light and your head starts to hurt after a while. You can work around the
> house a little bit but only as long as you don’t need power tools. Crime
> also increases once the lights go out, so whenever you have to go
> in a black out, carry the flashlight on one hand and a handgun on the
> Summarizing, being in a city without light turn to be depressing after a
> while. I spent my share of nights, alone, listening to the radio, eating
> canned food and cleaning my guns under the light of my LED head lamp. Then
> I got married, had a son, and found out that when you have loved ones
> around you black outs are not as bad. The point is that family helps
> on these situations.
> A note on flashlights. Have two or three head LED lights. They are not
> expensive and are worth their weight in gold. A powerful flashlight is
> necessary, something like a big Maglite or better yet a SureFire,
> especially when you have to check your property for intruders. But for
> mundane stuff like preparing food, going to the toilet or doing stuff
> around the house, the LED headlamp is priceless. Try washing the dishes on
> the dark while holding a 60 lumen flashlight on one hand and you’ll know
> what I mean. LEDs also have the advantage of lasting for almost an entire
> week of continuous use and the light bulb lasts forever. Rechargeable
> batteries are a must or else you’ll end up broke if lights go out often.
> Have a healthy amount of spare quality batteries and try to standardize as
> much as you can. I have 12 Samsung NM 2500Mh AA and 8 AAA 800mh for the
> headlamps. I use D cell plastic adaptors in order to use AA batteries on
> 3 D cell Maglite. This turned out to work quite well, better than I
> expected. I also keep about 2 or 3 packs of regular, Duracell batteries
> just in case. These are supposed to expire around 2012, so I can forget
> about them until I need them. Rechargeable NM batteries have the
> disadvantage of loosing power after a period of time, so keep regular
> batteries as well and check the rechargeable ones every once in a while.
> After all these years of problems with power, what two items I would love
> to have?
> 1) The obvious. A generator. I carried my fridge food to my parent’s house
> way to many times on the past. Too bad I can’t afford one right now.
> 2) A battery charger that has both solar panel and a small crank. They are
> not available here. I saw that they are relatively inexpensive in the USA.
> Do yourself a favor and get one or two of these. Even if they don’t charge
> as well as regular ones, I’m sure it will put out enough power to charge
> batteries for LED lamps at least.
> GAS (Propane and natural gas)
> Gas has decreased in quality as well, there is little gas. Try to have an
> electric oven in case you have to do without it. If both electricity and
> gas go down, one of those camping stoves can work as well, if you keep a
> good supply of gas cans. The ones that work with liquid fuel seem to be
> better on the long run, since they can use different types of fuel. You
> only store a limited amount of compressed gas and once you ran out of it,
> you are on your own if stores are closed of they sold them out. Anyway, a
> city that goes without gas and light for more than two weeks is a death
> trap, get out of there before it’s too late.
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