[permaculture] Harold Waldock comments on land

Lisa Rollens rollens at fidnet.com
Fri Sep 11 22:29:44 EDT 2009


This has been a very interesting conversation about acquiring land.  I, too, 
basically thought PC was about taking poor land and making something 
productive out of it.  But I can see your point about working yourselves to 
death and making progress achingly slowly.

For Justin, who started this thread....you apparently have not been in 
southern MO, because I have land in this Midwest state that is so steep one 
cannot climb on two feet.  Hands needed!  I have bluffs here where I expect 
to see a mountain lion any day.  Also,  we have springs and spring fed cold 
rivers and creeks, and caves.   I also have bottom land and upland. It's 
actually quite beautiful  in the Ozark Mountains.

The prices, relatively speaking, are good, too.  I moved here from Ohio 
where I had several inches of water on my garden spot virtually all winter. 
Land there cost $30,000 an acre if it was to be developed.  Down here, the 
land was around $2000 an acre 6 years ago, and this land produced more in my 
first garden than I grew the 7 years I was in Ohio combined.

It does get fairly hot in the summers, but the winters are not as cold as 
Ohio and further north.  Basically, we can work outside on something for 
most of the winter.  Winters don't last so long either.  By April 1 it can 
be quite warm altho there will still be frosts.  All my animals graze all 
winter.  I keep hay only for ice and sleet events.  Oh, and we have minimal 
government interference.  This particular county has NO building codes! 
Taxes are very low also.  It's even legal to sell raw milk from the farm.

There are challenges, of course.  The land is rocky and a lot of the topsoil 
has washed off.  But, we can make soil, and do.  Or, one can buy a farm with 
bottomland.  Another challenge is frequent droughts, but there again, we 
know how to save as much water as possible and plan for droughts.

Have I interested anyone??  It would be wonderful to have a few more 
permaculturists around the area.  There is even room on my farm, as I wrote, 
looking for a farm partner, a couple years ago.  No takers yet.  Actually, 
this area needs permaculturists. The land has a history of abuse that is 
still continuing.  It's mostly overgrazing and other cattle related 

If anyone wants more info I will be glad to provide it or find it.

Lisa, in the Ozarks of MO

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marjory" <forestgarden at gvtc.com>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Harold Waldock comments on land

> Hi Rain,
> A while back there was a movement by the Liberatarian party to have at
> least 5,000 of them all move to the same state.  They spent years
> deciding which state it should be - and they had some incredable
> comparative databases with info on all fifty states.  Comparisons of gun
> laws, homeschooling, raw milk, federal tax dollars recived versus paid,
> land area, et.c, et.c.  If the state had a small enough population, then
> the group of 5,000 of them getting politically active could control the
> state Gov't.   Having a non-US border was an issue as they hope someday
> to withdraw from the Union.  I believe they chose NH.
> The list of criteria for a good place is about what I am looking for (we
> are also tired of trying so hard in poor soils and insane climate).  And
> I think there are a lot of folks on this list that would agree that is
> pretty close to perfect.  Why not see if a bunch of folks would be
> interested in moving into an area?  What area would it be is still the
> question.  If you knew 'community' would be coming with you - would that
> open more potential space?
> Marjory
> Wells aid.  My husband and I kenw we could get a lot more done if we
> just focused on our land in a small communitya nd work to create the
> community we wanted.  We offered monthly taks, movies, speakers, and
> numerous workshops and of course, p.c. courses.
> Rain Tenaqiya wrote:
>>  Thanks for your comments, Harold.  Sometimes I feel a magazine could be 
>> made just from these online discussions.  I definitely resonate with your 
>> description of homesteading.  On the other hand, I've had my fill of 
>> community discussions that go nowhere, for years.  I've been able to do 
>> more to become sustainable with just my partner and myself over the past 
>> five years than any of the communities I've lived in, which have been 
>> around for decades.
>> One thing you mentioned which could provide a third way between joining 
>> or forming a community and striking off on your own is to settle next to 
>> an existing community, be it a progressive town or ecovillage.  That way, 
>> you can benefit from and contribute to the existing community, without 
>> being restricted by the group process to the same degree.  The hard work 
>> of establishing the community can now be used to increase its size and 
>> impact, sort of like tree establishment in open areas.  After reading 
>> Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel, I realized that to create a 
>> sustainable culture, we need to gain a momentum and connectivity that can 
>> only come from population clusters.  All of us moving to one state might 
>> be an extreme, but the closer we come to this, the better, I think. 
>> Reinventing the wheel by yourself out in the boonies is not the most 
>> effective strategy for social change.
>> Rain
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