[permaculture] Fwd: Copyright Infringement on PERMACULTURE: ADesigners Manual

fdnokes at hotmail.com fdnokes at hotmail.com
Wed Nov 11 13:01:54 EST 2009

An excellent suggestion for those with access to libraries.
I am a huge user of the library myself, including inter-library loan.
That would respect the needs of the author.
I believe that we have to consider the situation from the point of view of 
the provider.
By taking time to provide a service, a person needs to know that their basic 
life needs will be provided for.
A form of barter, if you squint at it.
And so, if we take away their livelihood, then we are also taking away their 
time to do the task which we desire.

Interestingly enough, I was having a similar conversation with a friend who 
runs a bottle return centre. People come and expect to be able to return all 
manner of things and are sometimes rather rude when they cannot, or do leave 
their things behind anyhow. I think the point they need to consider is that 
these people would not be providing this service of taking their bottles and 
giving them money if they were not able to, in turn, take these bottles and 
receive money for them. It's a question of considering the practical nature 
of another's existence.
On the other hand, I told my friend that I would help her research the right 
places for people to take the things that she cannot. As they are in a 
position to publicize this information on a regular basis, it is well worth 
the effort.

We all come from different 'eco-systems'. Perhaps we need to realize that 
the solutions in one domain (living freely without money) are not 
necessarily the solutions in another (needing to enforce copyright to make a 

Am I missing some vital pieces of information in my guess at what is true in 
this situation?

If not, I hope this helps.


From: "ChildrensPeaceGuild" <childrenspeaceguild at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 4:57 AM
To: "permaculture" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>; "Nicholas Roberts" 
<niccolo.roberts at gmail.com>
Subject: [permaculture] Fwd: Copyright Infringement on PERMACULTURE: 
ADesigners Manual

> Evan,
> Setting aside for a moment the debate over the ethics of copyright, 
> intellectual property, etc (which I might happen to agree with you on), I 
> believe your hearts are all in the right place. You and the folks at 
> Tagari share a similar goal, albeit on different paths.
> Perhaps a good compromise would be to feature the book on your site and 
> proceed to let people know that it is available for free (though not 
> digitally) through inter-library loan. I was able to obtain a copy in less 
> than a week. Until your dispute is settled, this seems like a reasonable 
> middle ground.
> Best of luck,
> Roman Shapla
> Children's PEACE Guild
> www.childrenspeaceguild.webs.com
> ________________________________
> From: Evan Schoepke <thejulianeffect at gmail.com>
> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org; Nicholas Roberts 
> <niccolo.roberts at gmail.com>
> Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 6:33:13 PM
> Subject: [permaculture] Fwd: Copyright Infringement on PERMACULTURE: A 
> Designers Manual
> Ingenio “Patent”
> Campus?<http://punkrockpermaculture.com/2009/11/10/permieliberation/>
> •November
> 10, 2009 • Leave a
> Comment<http://punkrockpermaculture.com/2009/11/10/permieliberation/#respond>
> (Edit<http://punkrockpermaculture.wordpress.com/wp-admin/post.php?action=edit&post=446>
> )
> Hello lovely Permies,
> Due to my posting of the entire Permaculture Designers
> Manual,<http://astore.amazon.com/punkrockperme-20> commonly know
> as the permaculture bible, I received a swift take down notice from Tagari
> Publications <http://www.tagari.com/>
> andScribd<http://www.scribd.com/Gaia%20Punk> which
> I respectfully followed.  It is my opinion that this book is so
> *important* that
> it should be made  completely free on all the myriad internets because we’re
> living in a time of extreme ecological and social crisis and the tools
> needed to fix the crises must be made available to everyone not just those
> with the economic  privilege to afford them.  Please see the letters below
> and also* please comment* if you think the designers manual should be
> liberated onto the internet.  I feel this debate gets at the very heart of
> the permaculture ethic of “fair share” and  I will post any further
> correspondence with Tagari here and elsewhere.
> I’m starting a *campaign on **twitter* <http://twitter.com/gaiapunk> 
> advocating
> for the *free release* of the permaculture designers manual. *@gaiapunk
> #permieliberation*
> *ATTENTION: Evan Schoepke*
> Pursuant to 17 USC 512(c)(3)(A), this communication serves as a statement
> that:
> I am the exclusive rights holder (being the Publisher) for the book 
> titled:
> *Permaculture: A Designers’ Manual* written by Bill Mollison.
> ISBN 0 908228 01 5 and first published in Australia in 1988 and reprinted 
> in
> 2004, 2009 by Tagari Publications, Australia.
> These exclusive rights are being violated by material that has been
> available upon your site at the following URL(s):
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/22260478/Permaculture-D-Manual and
> http://punkrockpermaculture.com/.
> I have a good faith belief that the use of this material in such a fashion
> is not authorized by the copyright holder, the copyright holder’s agent, 
> or
> the law;
> Under penalty of perjury in a United States court of law, I state that the
> information contained in this notification is accurate, and that I am
> authorized to act on the behalf of the exclusive rights holder for the
> material in question.
> I may be contacted by the following methods:
> *Phone:* (Aus) 61 + 3 6445 0945
> *Fax:* 61 + 3 6445 0944
> *Address:* 31 Rulla Road, Sisters Creek, Tasmania, 7325, Australia
> *Email:* mollison.lisa at tagari.com
> I hereby request that you remove or disable access to this material now 
> and
> in the future as it appears on your service in as expedient a fashion as
> possible. Thank you.
> Regards,
> Lisa Mollison
> Director
> My reply:
> [image: permaculture
> logo]<http://punkrockpermaculture.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/permaculture-logo.jpg>
> Okay Tagari,
> the book is gone,
> I have lost the battle,
> however I do know of other places you could find it online for free.  As a
> practicing certified urban permaculturalist I believe this event brings up 
> a
> interesting philosophical debate.  This book *is* the permaculture bible 
> and
> I know that Tagari publishers is sole legal guardian of it’s legacy.  In
> fact I love Tagari, and everything it stands for, what it’s doing with the
> money it earns, all of it. But, I still think the book should be released
> onto the internets for free!  Why? Well, because if there is anything Bill
> has shown me it is that we definately don’t have the gaurentee of
> permanence to solve the ecological and social crisis that we are facing. 
> I
> feel that perhaps I come from a new and starkly different generation that
> believes in a type of movement building that allows for the funding of
> projects by lots of people paying a small amount instead of a
> few privileged folks paying a lot of money.  I would really love to read
> Bill’s book on fermentation, supposedly his best work, but it’s also very
> expensive.  I’m not saying Tagari should let go of all it’s copyrights but 
> I
> am asking if the time has come for the designers manual to be liberated,
> what do you think?  Someday I’m sure the designers manual will be 
> available
> free in the public commons and that could make a very large impact, lets
> hope that day does not come too late.  Will the field continue to lie open
> to every intellect (*ingenio patet campus*) regardless of income?  I’m
> interested in your response and wish the very best with all the amazing 
> and
> inspiring work your doing now and in the future.
> With the greatest respect for Bill, Lisa, Tagari, and the entire global
> permaculture network,
> Have a fair share day!,
> Evan C. Schoepke
> Gaia Punk Designs
> 713 Division ST
> Olympia WA, USA
> 98502
> thejulianeffect(at)gmail.com
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